Artist vs. oeuvre

i believe a human does not actually creates music or other kind of art, but rather serves as medium for it. of course, this does not correspond well with common copyright concept, but whatever.

music itself has nothing or very little to do with its medium. once it’s released — it belongs to another dimension. humans are mortal, music is actually too, but its life cycle is huge compared to any mere mortal, so it’s strange to think they are tied up that much.

i never would ignore a piece of art just because the medium failed.

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I dunno, I heard that he said some pretty horrible stuff to a couple of underage hamsters.

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The guy had a hit song called ‘Two Little Boys’ … as if that wasn’t a dead give away.

There’s an insane history of pervs and egomaniac abusive criminal idiots in the entertainment industry.

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Yeah I know now, as I said it was my misunderstanding :+1:

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I find that it really stings when an artist is using their platform to produce an audience of people who are against the actions they did in secret. A few times recently there have been friends/artists I look up to who have said all the right things, made sure their shows are safe spaces and react well to people abusing the policy, and conducted their PR in a way that made it seem like they shared the core values I look for in artists, but when credible accusations come out against them they show their true colors and victim blame, issue non-apologies, or just do not put in the necessary work to rebuild their image they claimed to hold.

I have more respect for someone who just rides with the awful look the whole time rather than someone who wolves-in-sheeps-clothing’s their way into scenes that were built as an escape from people like them.

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To be fair, he wasn’t into little boys.

This, sadly, is bang on the money.

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I was being sardonic.
Not fair of me to imply that he was into underage boys as well as girls.

True enough, sadly also in many other occupations with access to kids - education, religion, authority etc.

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I was creasing myself on Christmas Day when I accidentally came across this while visiting my parents for dinner.

What made it better was that I found out it was a gift from my gran to my brother a few years back and had a lovely note written inside from her to my bro.

Read a few pages and it’s ridiculous when read in hindsight.

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Yes it’s awful.
I don’t want derail the thread by getting into a conversation specifically about these kinds of abuses. The thread title Artist vs Oeuvre is problematic when you later discover one of your influences or hero’s even turn out to be shitty people but there are so many of them on many different levels that’s it’s difficult to know where to draw the line or even to draw one.

Personally I am able to detach the art from the artist. It definitely tarnishes my enjoyment / participation and I remain always aware of it but if for example it’s a song I’ve grown up with and I love it then that isn’t going to change. Music especially has an incredible power in terms of stimulating memory regardless of other associations.

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i can’t change the past so never feel guilty having supported them or learning from their art

but in the future i don’t recommend to others, don’t put money in the pockets, and don’t keep work of abusers in my collection

however, this hasn’t really happened with anyone i love to death and maybe i’d feel conflicted about cutting them off

I loved it :smiley:

I can fully empathise with the idea of an artist’s actions spoiling one’s subjective enjoyment of their work. I can also agree with the wish not to give money to people who are shitheads.

I don’t understand, though, the idea that some seem to espouse, that a work itself carries some moral badness or evil because the artist was bad. Further, it seems childish to suggest that that people who do appreciate that work are somehow morally wrong (though I do get the idea that those people might promote or lend to that person’s fame).

It’s obviously quite different, but it’s interesting to consider that we would balk at judging a person for the actions of their parents. ‘Ugh I can’t stand x because I know who their dad was’ seems a pretty dickish thing to say. But a child is often quite literally much more the ‘product’ of a person than a song or a statue.

Even when a piece is created by a single person, a human is directed by a vast array of varying influences both external and internal, and if we read about (or know personally) accounts of the creative experience, a common refrain is that our creative selves are often ‘other’ to our daily selves.

This isn’t to excuse moral culpability for one’s acts - people should always be held accountable in appropriate ways - but to suggest that there is no necessary direct link between a work and a given act. Sure, if the work (Matzneff comes to mind) is a direct expression of the moral problem, then we can make the link, but are we really claiming this is always the case? That someone can’t represent beauty or something pure (or something filthy!) in the same lifetime as doing vile things?

And then you have works that are collaborative. Do Spector’s crimes diminish the gifts of the artists who he produced? What of the hundreds of actors, crew, editors, etc who come together to make a film that happens to be directed by someone (or have a certain executive)?

It’s nearly time for my dinner so I’ll shut up, but we seem to be too fixed to the idea of a single solid self-aware and self-culpable ego that is responsible for all the acts of an individual, when most of the historical wisdom of the wold, and an increasing amount of modern scientific research suggests that’s not a viable picture of the human being.

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I think it’s important to stop listening to those types of artists (or comedians, filmmakers, etc).

As long as we uphold the myth of the tortured genius, people will continue to justify predatory behavior. For instance, while I love the Skyrim soundtrack dearly, I’ve decided to not listen to it any more now that I know what its composer has done.

If we say “he was terrible for doing X Y Z, but he is a genius so I will keep listening to him”, then artists with bad behaviors will have less reason to stop those behaviors because they will view themselves as the tortured genius. We have to villainize the bad behaviors to a high degree.

This is of course difficult when you look at influential musicians like Michael Jackson - how can you stop listening to his classics? But I think it’s important that we stop “separating the art from the artist” if we want to really stop predatory behaviors.

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And I love you (assuming you’re over 18 of course).

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Perfectly legal

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In the realm of science, we can’t say that a scientific discovery is less true or important because the person who made it was a criminal. I feel similarly about music. If something is generally acknowledged as being a great artistic creation, the circumstances of the creator can’t change that.

Practically speaking, the quality of the artistic output makes a big difference. Most musicians, we can live without them. But if we learnt from some old letter that Bach was a sexual predator-- would we all retune our pianos and decide that actually it was rubbish all along?

Editing to add: I think part of my attitude to this has come from studying philosophy. There are a lot of great philosophers (anyone pre-20th century, really) who had some ideas that are appallingly bigoted by modern standards. I can’t say that that invalidates their moments of brilliance and insight, though. It’s also likely that even the most right-on of us hold some ideas right now that will be considered awful by our descendents, and I don’t think that makes us wrong about everything.

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I read Debbie Curtis’s book the day it was released. It made me see Ian Curtis as your basic garden variety dickhead, not the legend everyone thought he was.
I was massively influenced by JD music in my early teens, but never could stand Ian’s vocals, which reminded me of Bing Cosby. Basically, Debbie’s book about Ian made me like the music more because at last I had a more substantial reason to hate his vocal style.

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For me in this particular case all I can say for certain is that I won’t listen to or buy any of this persons work any more.

Edit: New work

move on - don’t let said person’s actions bring you down. If it was a big part of your life and now you feel crap about what happened then I think you should burn all the art in a form of letting go ceremony… bring on new energy that empowers you instead of relics from the past that only exist in your mind…

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