Anyone struggling sound designing with this machine? (DN2)

Here I am, proudly rocking the DN2 since launch and its older sibling DN1 for what feels like forever, yet FM synthesis and I are still having a rather awkward relationship.

It’s like we went on multiple dates but there’s just no chemistry, you know? Sure, the Synthdawg’s guide was a lifesaver - finally made sense of all that Elektron sequencing voodoo and the basic “how not to completely mess up” stuff. But sound design? That’s where things get… interesting.

I’m sitting here like a kid with a nuclear reactor, trying to make a decent kick drum and ending up with sounds that would make a robot cry. Want a specific synth sound? Ha! Good luck with that journey of frustration. It’s exactly like having a Boeing 787 parked in your backyard but your pilot skills are limited to paper airplanes.

Anyone else in this boat of endless FM confusion? Please share your wisdom, because right now it feels like I’m trying to solve a Rubik’s cube in the dark. While wearing mittens. In space.

Sincerely,
A lost Elektronaut

7 Likes

Listen to the presets and load some of your favorites into a pattern and look how they were made. There’s an intro on fm synthesis in the user manual and I suggest you watch some interview of Ess Matisson on you tube , he’s one of the designer’s team member who worked on the first digitone . You could improve your skills. Sometimes fm can be daunting. The benefit of dn2 is that you can rely on wave tone machine if fm is not the type of sounds you’re looking for at the moment .

5 Likes

a lot of wisdom in this thread:

11 Likes

You have to approach FM more methodically than other forms of synthesis.

And you can’t avoid the math.

For starters, the algorithm dictates everything. Not the least of which is whether or not a given parameter will even have an effect on the sound. So, you can’t just turn knobs at random and hope for a predictable outcome.

I find a lot of tutorials on the topic of FM to be convoluted and meandering, which just causes more confusion and further deters people. That said, once it clicks, it’s as easy to command results as any other form of synthesis.

I bet loopop has some great videos on this. I seem to recall that his reviews of the OG Digitone and the Korg OPSIX both did a pretty good job of explaining the basics of FM. So, maybe start there.

At any rate, making a decent kick on the DN2 using FM Drum is a piece of cake. The first thing you need to do is lower the octave of Operator C using the TUNE param. Keep the STIM reasonably short, and use the SDEP sparingly, and you’ll be well on your way.

Cheers!

6 Likes

Chasing specific sounds is as frustrating an endeavor as it is fun. I think it can be detrimental to the overall experience to be dead set on something, and much prefer to attempt to get close to something and accept all the happy accidents along the way. DNII more than the DN has a lot more going for it on this front - but because we are also discussing DNII it should be noted that this doesn’t have to be exclusively in the context of FM when you have WaveTone and Swarmer.

Generally speaking, if I am chasing a certain sound, while in the process I get somewhere totally different quite often and I don’t discard that, I save it because it’s still good to my ears. It should also be noted that DNII has a suite of options for defining sound, but it still can’t replicate many things where your reference patch for example has more modulation options (namely modulation on the basis of envelopes) and here you are bound to LFOs or the other sound modulations.

Finally, not everything needs to be accomplished through the basis of an init patch. If you scroll through the factory libraries and find something close, that might serve as a better starting point of reference. Experimentation is key.

3 Likes

I watched a few videos on FM, and I got a reasonable grasp of what it is. But generating interesting sounds for me is still a lot of ‘just twiddling knobs and see what happens’. I should memorize what the abbreviations mean for starters, most of the time I forget what a knob is supposed to change. It’s just a shortage of experience for me. When I’m twiddling I usually end up with some same’ish sounds and then you start to believe it’s apparently all it can do and a limiting factor. Then you hear presets of people like Substan and Hadron Orchestra, and you realize that thing can do magic…it’s just me that’s not up to the task for now. It’s ok, I try resist wanting to do it all at the same time. Use presets for creating music, and once in a while just focus on fiddling with the parameters to create sound.

2 Likes

I considered returning it at first.

Now I’m really enjoying it and creating sounds i like and want to use.

I almost want to do a digitone only project as it leads me to different places than what I usually use and I love this aspect.

It might just not be for you. In my experience of it there’s room for change in a big way. Maybe just give it some time.

I don’t try to make specific sounds tho as such, I tend to experiment and go from there.

3 Likes

On this track, I programmed every sound from scratch on the OG Digitone.

https://open.spotify.com/track/3YNnZTiOMvhyFq5SwBMBBL?si=f2e7d0848ec04729

2 Likes

Unfortunately I can’t be much help, but just know that you’re not alone! I find FM synthesis fiddly and inscrutable.

It might sound like a boring way to start, but start off using only two operators and play with every parameter until you know how it will affect the sound. You’ll be surprised how far you can get!

5 Likes

I don’t agree with this much…
I think one can perfectly discover FM with a DNII without using maths. And the learning curve is not that bad.

Look for the “Tao of FM synthesis”, it opened my eyes and ears about this incredibly powerful form of synthesis.

Once you understand that

  • a sine modulating a sine adds harmonics,
  • if both have the same frequency, you go towards a saw
  • if one is an octave above the other, you go towards a square wave
  • feedback is a sine modulating itself

…you have the basics to start exploring.

Use envelopes for the modulation to change during time…
Start simple, with one or two operators, see where it leads you.
Try to not use filters at first, and fake filter envelopes with modulations.

The more you experiment, the more you understand how sounds are made.

Go forensics on the presets you enjoy.

Exploring the mysteries of FM synthesis is a remarkable and enjoyable trip, so much crazy sounds to discover!

You’re not a paper plane pilot, you’re an explorer facing a maya temple full of treasures!

By the way, some people have drawn maps towards treasures…

20 Likes

Tons of fun can be had on the Digitone with page randomization to find an interesting jumping off point to shape a sound - or just for noodling after a long day.

3 Likes

Cuckoo dropped this today.

8 Likes

Yes, and no matter how you choose to say it, ratios are math, and these principals are not trivial to the plight of FM synthesis.

You’ve even provided links to academic material on the topic. So, how exactly are we in disagreement here?

As I said earlier, at the bare minimum, understanding how each algorithm works, and what to expect when cross-modulating between operators, is paramount *if you aspire to dictate a particular outcome.

But I knew someone would take exception to the word “math”, and split hairs with me about it, because it seems to me that most people would rather blissfully fiddle-about with these machines than take themselves to school.

And hey, sincerely… That’s okay. Happy noodling. I mean that wholeheartedly. :hearts:

The OP, however, expressed some genuine frustration over not fully understanding the medium of FM, and I simply let him know that it’s a little more involved than your average subtractive synth, but nevertheless accessible if you’re the least bit studious.

Moreover, I’m not here to defend the fun factor of the DN2. I believe in a measured approach, tangible knowledge, being informed, and taking one’s craft to task.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Good will, folks.

Cheers!

image

:grimacing:

9 Likes

download

“diving” means to dive into submenus. There are no submenus on DNII (except special stuff like the behaviour of note slides), just flipping pages :wink:

15 Likes

wow there is no better encapsulation of my relationship with the st and dn2

3 Likes

My workflow on the OG Digitone is to first create the rhythmic, melodic and harmonic elements of my tracks, starting with default (sine) sounds, then to tweak all track sounds recursively until they “play well together”. One of my 4 tracks is always bass. Occasionally, I am impressed with how much the resulting bass sound reminds me of a real bass. This is interesting, because my goal is not to create “realistic” sounds, but rather sounds that works in the mix.

In other words, my version of “sound design” is more about addressing practical issues of texture, balance, distinction, etc…rather that trying to emulate a certain sound. Interestingly, I think there may be a type of convergent evolution at play, though. Different methods of sound design producing similar results.

Why is an electric bass, for example, such a useful sound in so many types of music? Because it has a unique and supporting place in the texture. For example, there is an element of rhythm in the attack, complexity in the initial transient (to set it apart from other sounds), a practical decay, as to not cover other sounds. I try to focus on practical elements of a bass sound, rather than asking myself, “Does that sounds like a bass?”

My argument is, I suppose, that meeting certain practical requirements of an effective bass sound (with special consideration to the other parts of the texture), results in a good bass sound. Because a good bass sound (or a good any sound) is a sound that “works”.

I think I would lose my patience for straight-up sound design. I’m impressed with those who can do it.

3 Likes

Eh, I wouldn’t feel so bad about taking a while to grok the Digitone. I don’t own the DNII, but me and the DNI did not get along. Its world of FM synthesis frightened and confused me.

When I saw the little algorithms and operators I would wonder, “did tiny demons get into this box and move my oscillators around?” My primitive mind could not grasp these concepts.

After a few weeks I traded it toward an Analog Rytm, which is now my favorite gear.

In all seriousness . . . could I have applied myself, buckled down, and learned a new form of synthesis? Probably. Could I have pushed through the feeling of being a caveman trying to get a law degree? Sure. But in the end I decided my time was better spent honing the the skills I already had.

I’ve never found anything as maddening and confusing as FM synthesis. And sometimes an instrument just isn’t the one for you. I’m not saying that’s the case for you, but it was for me.

4 Likes

I have been struggling to sound design on the DN2 as well, but it’s probably because I don’t own one.

6 Likes

It really does. but thats the magic of it.

What other synth can transport you into space, while keeping your hands warm and provide you with a puzzle that has near endless combination outcomes. Because its dark and you cant see it, you never know what you will hear when peeking behind a corner.

I’ve been using DN for a long time and i can say that it feels like that to this day. But instead of being frustrating, i appreciate it.

DN is as far from instant gratification, or a one night stand, as you can get. It wont share its secrets with you if you both are not comfortable with each other. Slow burn instrument.

It really just comes down to using it more. But if you want practical tips, then these that i would give myself when i was in the beginning:

  • start by creating 2 operator sounds
    (this will give you basic feel of what parameter do)
  • let your ears rest, listen to sounds in context
    (DN morphs its sounds smoothly, this will help you hear your sounds better)
  • adjust operator levels slowly, and dont forget to play with offsets
    (the fine ones)
  • dont rely on Filter or FX

Regardless of how much theory i learned, it just came down to building a sort of muscle memory to be able to navigate FM. Its like a 3 body gravity problem, 2 operators is predictable, 3 and more - all bets are off, and you just have to listen.


DN2 has an awesome percussive engine now, theres really not many reasons to rawdog FM kicks unless you are actively trying to make something that would make a robot cry :robot:

4 Likes