Ableton Syncing Problems // make Song Mode useful (hopefully)

Elektron Gear Syntakt
#1

Hej there folks

Now that Song Mode has descended upon us, I tried once again to make Ableton behave and have it synced to the Syntakt clock, so I might be able to use the Song Mode with my other synths.
I’m running a hybrid setup and so far, only using Ableton as the brain I could get a stable clock 100% of the time. Never the other way around.

So far I tried everything, from just USB-Midi (with or without HUB), 5Din via two different interfaces I have and the ominous “options.txt” thing for Ableton to have more sync options. Everything from OS to ofc Syntakt is up to date. Non I’ve tried worked and clock is always unstable and needs about 2 bars until it has set. Meaning anything clock related is wonky/wobbly in the meantime and synced stuff sounds like you have humanise on 300%! But mbe I haven’t found the right solution yet?

I’ve uploaded two screencaps to show how the problem looks and sounds like
first the erratic clock:

and the then ofc erratic transport in the piano roll:

The ONLY option that worked so far is to use Bitwig, it doesn’t seem to have this problem and syncing from outside seems no issue at all. But since Ableton is my main tool and I am also using a Push2, that’s not really a solution here and I hope for experienced Elektronauts that have already solved this riddle and made Ableton behave! <3

(yes, I also contacted Ableton support and I switched it off and on again :wink: )

cheers,
Cat

CLOCK 2.5 Ableton Midi-CLOCK M1 compatible
#2

Best solution is using a sync clock honestly. Slaving ableton to hadrware is a real shot in the dark. It is better to use ableton as master and use a sync clock to send audio triggers out of its plugin in ableton into the sync box and into your syntakt via MIDI din. It is an expensive solution but what most people do now if they don’t use overbridge.

Or you can buy something like a 1010 blackbox which has a really solid clock, and record track by track into that. It’s a hassle.

The other option is if you are recording everything into the DAW in one take is to not sync at all. Just put the BPM in abelton the same as the syntakt. Then just hit record, ands record everything in. Then select all the WAV files and drag them onto the grid.

One more bonus option for track by track recording - make the first pattern in your song so that every track is hitting on the 1, 5,9, 13. Record into the DAW and line up those intial hits.

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#3

Lucky for me and USB-Midi, so far I don’t need an external clock OUT of Ableton.
Everything is super-tight (8ms max delay), guess that’s the plus side of midi-usb.

However syncing clock INTO Ableton is the headache, you’re right.
What puzzles me is that Bitwig seems to do just fine with it, but changing isn’t an option for me.
I’d really would like to make use of the Song Mode that just arrived, that is really the idea here and thus have Ableton follow an external clock.

Also thought about options like the E-RM or other clocks, who would get the tempo from say my Syntakt and then deliver that to Ableton. But that’s a 600€ experiment I am not willing to make atm, but if someone out here already has tried that, or knows about another method, that would be cool! :slight_smile:

#4

Why are you looking to slave ableton again? I don’t get that part. Ableton as the master is honestly the way to go in hybrid cases.

I use the E-RM to record hardware into ableton. Abelton is master clock always. I get excellent timing this way 1ms or less of jitter. Latency is less than 2ms, but that is due to my RME interface.

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#5

Oh curiosity really, like I said: the new Song Mode on the Elektron Boxes is a really nice thing

but for it to function well, it needs to send the clock into Ableton — if you want to use say a slower bridge or faster build-up and therefore the pattern-tempo-change function

#6

Yeah I have been using the Analog Rytm song mode for a while now. I just sync it to ableton via the ERM and record in. I don’t really do tempo changes though in my music.

#7

I have also experienced issues with the erratic piano roll stuff with the Digitone. I’ve found that routing the piano roll MIDI track to the Overbridge Plugin MIDI ports is what results in the erratic playback behavior.

A solution that worked for me was to enable the Digitone MIDI track output via Ableton’s settings.

Screen Shot 2022-09-30 at 3.33.45 PM
Screen Shot 2022-09-30 at 3.33.45 PM784×356 23 KB

This is the destination is where I route my MIDI tracks instead of the Overbridge plugin track input ports. You’ll need to make sure the Syntakt “Input From” is set to accept USB Midi in the MIDI>Port Config menu.

Screen Shot 2022-09-30 at 3.45.10 PM
Screen Shot 2022-09-30 at 3.45.10 PM788×592 44.1 KB

I haven’t used a Syntakt before, but hopefully these instructions will be 1:1 given these boxes seem like siblings!

Sorry I don’t have a solution for the external clock issue. I did some experimenting a while back and settled on using Ableton’s clock and then I use the overbridge-sync’ed-DN to send clock to all my other devices. That method has been stable & the playback starts in sync right away without needing to play catch up. When I previously sent Live’s clock out of my audio interface midi ports directly into my OT, the first few bars would be wobbly as the clock averaged out. OT receiving from OB sync’ed DN has been rock solid.

It might be a pain to set up your session in this way (and possibly buggy jumping DAW clock on the fly), but if you had Live as the sync clock, could you automate tempo changes in Live (either via the arrangement view or by firing scene changes with the appropriate tempos at the right moments?

#8

Ah, ok but you also cannot use an Elektron box as the clock source, no matter how you’ve configured it?

The way I have set up my “normal” chain of commands and where it is absolutely stable is as follows:

CLOCK:
Ableton (clock + transport) > Overbridge > Syntakt (which sends a stable clock signal even when stopped) > Din-Midi > other synths get clock (since Ableton refuses to send clock when stopped)

MIDI:
Ableton > notes/cc via Clips to wherever it is needed

And this is all fine, no lags or latency etc. BUT it doesn’t let you use the Song Mode with Tempo changes, nor the Metronome of the Syntakt does work. Ableton also is tricky with sending PC messages via clips, so that’s another option why I look to use the Elektron sequencer instead

This is why I am looking into the external clock sync option

#9

I found the issue folks, at least in relation to Elektron Boxes and specifically the Syntakt:

it is the START/STOP behaviour where Elektron and Ableton get out of sync!

In the vid below you can see and hear it. In the first half I start/stop with the stop button (single or double doesn’t matter here) and you see how erratic Ableton behaves. In the second half however I PAUSE the play and restart it, numerous times, fast after another, it always is in-sync at the restart.

So there is something in the handling of the STOP & START between Elektron and Ableton that makes them play catch-up. Only in this situation.

Sound is Syntakt and a simple Pigments midi-clip from the session view:

cheers,
Cat

#10

Wouldn’t it be an option to just automate BPM changes in Ableton at the correct positions while using Ableton as Master? A project can have different parts with different BPMs.

#11

mbe, but this isn’t the goal of this experiment

It is to use the functions that are given by the application (Ableton) and the hardware (Syntakt or any other Elektron Box) and make them work

and since Ableton has this function to be synced from outside natively, I just want to make this work and use what is given to us users as a tool :slight_smile:

After all this is not a hack. This is how it’s supposed to work. But obv. needs hacked Workflows to make it work, which is a shame tbh, coz why would they have put the option there in the first place when it’s useless really?

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#12

(Don’t want to hi jack) but I’m having similar problems concerning scene changes will slaves to Ableton. They work fine when not using ableton, but when slaved to Ableton the scene changes don’t happen in sync.

Same pattern lengths on all devices (A4, SY, OT) pattern changes coming from OT. Over bridge on A4 and SY.

#13

I actually was trying a similar setup as you described and run into the same issues. One thing that is working for me is to run clock from Arturia Keystep Pro which I also use to play on Digitone, and send clock to both Syntakt and Digitone. The improvement is noticeable, but only if you set the PPQ to 48 instead of default 24. I also start every song with 2 bars of all mutes and in that way I can just connect my setup to PC, use Ableton Live as a very advanced track recorder XD I also use song mode to be able to record tracks one by one with outboard effects and for some tracks to have multiple takes on live sound mangling.