I’ll try to answer point by point to all your questions Peter!
Let’s start.
So why not use a DAW?
-When I said “I like extremely modern sounds” I meant about drum sounds.
Personally I don’t like too much to make music on a computer.
I just use it as support for little things like records, re-order ideas, treating samples and similar.
Is totally outside my set-up.
And since it seems I can obtain what I want without it I don’t feel the needs to put it in, despite I recognize well the power DAWs offers on multiple aspects.
Also is a vast world. Maybe too many chances.
What’s your set up?
Do you use Daws?
So why not use an Octatrack if it does what you need? If necessary, get another one to dedicate to your solo project.
- As said I need to free up tracks on the Octa.
I don’t want another one because I don’t need it since I can choose for a drum machine, also with sample-managing capabilities….just one shots, not much more needed.
In addition I can say that Octatrack is a deep instrument; it can do lot of things, and the more you want, more time you have to stay on it while performing. It’s a “stay-on-me” machine.
Actually Cirklon and OT are the center of my set-up and I found a great balance between them, while I can have an overall control on what’s going on and the other machines.
Managing two of them would be too much in my environment, and also a complete waste, considering the employment.
I don’t need another sampler at all. specially if I can free up tracks on mine.
Nor do you like the Tempest, Tanzbar, or Vermona instruments, apparently, so are you sure that you like analogue?
- I said that I love those machines, a lot….and they are all analog.
What I missed is that I’m not convinced about the AR synthesis for the sounds it produces in this range.
If we’re talking about drum synthesis platforms of a “classic mold” (I don’t know if “mold” is the right terms, forgive my english, please) I can say that I haven’t problems with old-style synthesis, but I, actually, don’t like too much old drum sounds, that’s all.
If I would be bonded to this argument I probably prefer sounds of MFB Tanzbar or the Vermona DR-1.
Tempest under this aspect is transversal.
I’ve already expressed my opinion and my limits about it…or at least I hope so!
In all this I actually love also digital stuff on drums.
My words in the first lines of the first quote-reply underscores this, so here why my including the MDUW - that is digital- in this discussion.
For me they can both coexist together. Don’t you agree?
Overall I mostly like analog sounds, it’s a matter of taste I discovered (in fact I chose all analog stuff for my sounds, in time).
I’m not an “extremist” under this aspect like “digital sucks, analog wins” or vice-versa…I just know my tastes and for what I’m potentially looking for.
AR int this case can cover lot of ground among all the aspects…something more, something less.
Your Cirklon’s sequencing features in terms of MIDI outputs, micro-timing, quantization, and fills are much superior to those of the MD and AR. So why not just get a drum module to drive from your Cirklon?
(This is why I asked why you wanted a drum machine.)
- Oh well! Sorry if I misunderstood you question, I thought your was a deeper question, leading to the basics…and as you can see I like a lot to talk and quibble.
Cirklon offers me all this, yes. And, as I wrote, I consider these chances for what they are: tools.
And for me both the seqs comes handy at needs, so their possible combination.
Modular fascinates me but is a world I’m not prepared to.
Do you use modules?
I’m not really sure what you mean by this. The effects configurations on the MD and AR are very similar.
Both the MD and AR have delay and reverb as send effects, where you send a variable amount of each drum sounds to a single delay and a single reverb.
If you have external effects you can route individual drum sounds to individual outputs on either MD or AR.
- In this time I learnt more about the effect sides of the machines, I were not so documented.
I apologize for being unclear.
At first, thanks for the infos.
I discovered the effect send structure of both machines.
Seems both can cover my needs.
I know that I can route every voice to my ext. fx, but internal ones come useful to me when I want to give an own room to the drum sounds or if I want to use them for other “more creative” purposes, like sculpt a different tail for a certain sound or a groove.
Also seems I have the chance to use the send fx also in sidechain, thing that I’m preferring these days.
What is obscure to me, actually, are how the effects sounds.
Just read around and videos are unhelpful for this.
What kind of reverbs and delays they offers?
I just know about analog comp and distortion of the AR, so for the filters…oh and that MDUW has independent ones, where AR has a multimode filter.
Both the MD and AR have layering capabilities: the MD can layer any combination of its 16 tracks, while the AR can layer analog drum + sample on each of its 8 voices.
What do you think “powerful” means for an LFO?
- Thanks also this time.
Honestly under this aspect I could have chosen the MD, probably. But 12 bit samples scares me a bit, I’m not familiar with this type of lo-fi degradation…but probably is what gives that queed to the character of the MD.
What can you tell me about?
For me an LFO excels when shines in characteristics like waveform shapes, smoothness, cycles top/lower speed rate, amplitude of the waves and when carries features like PWM, the ability too choose sync/run free, wave restat or looping.
I particularly like the dynamic transitions between shapes like certain Moog’s LFO and others.
The routing option it’s a matter of the machine they’re built into, to me.
Cannot express any OSC build qualities because I don’t know anything about circuitry.
I base my opinion strictly on what expressed and how they do their job.
The MD Mk II can hold 48 drum sounds at a time, but you can load 1ny of 128 of these sample banks if the MD has a +Drive.
If live sampling is important to you, why not use your Octatrack?
- This feature was cited for creation moments.
As said, I need to free up space on the OT tracks from drum samples for running other.
Drums samples to the drum, other ones to the OT, with different purposes.
Well MDUW could have come handy: just route the interested sound to its Ins and catch it; it converts everything automatically. But again the unconvincing 12 bit res. that is done automatically-is the way the UW handles samples.
On the AR I probably have to have care to select sounds before other intent.
I thought about it and actually it is a +1 for the AR just for the samples quality.
About storage what convinced me more is the AR’s more easy way to manage files into the whole machine.
As already mentioned, your Cirklon has a way better sequencer than either the MD or AR.
I very much doubt that your OT sucks at receiving MIDI. You are unlikely to find that either the MD or AR are better at receiving MIDI than the OT.
- I meant this also for writing moments, and after for live usage.
Well, agree for the Cirklon capabilities at all, but we are talking of two separate things:
- MIDI SEND; if I put down a beat on the machine, maybe after having messed around on it, would be extremely useful to send MIDI data to Cirklon and, maybe, finish the work there -or just leaving it if liked.
Here AR comes down. In a certain way to me seems stupid just because with micro timing features and human-like quantization seems It needs this feature more than the MD; It’s a mess to re-write everything on the Ck due to this MIDI send gap. I hope at least that data-per-pad sound are transmitted when pressed.
Obviously the scene changes totally if I write directly on the Ck.
MD, in meanwhile shares this feature, but having the chance to write mostly linear beats…it is said.
I know that overall there’s a lot of reasons Elektron made these decisions and that we are talking about different machines with different chances and purposes into manage MIDI data.
How you handle this in your set-up?
- MIDI RECEIVING;
I guess that probably you don’t have an Octatrack. Or that you run Electron machines matched together…at least as master for other brands stuff.
As also drone said in the last post, OT is a disaster as MIDI slave.
Everytime you have to solve timing alignments anticipating CC’s or Program Changes, trying to find the right spot and facing various problems. I assume that is a problem that happens for it’s own structure and maybe due to the data managements.
It would be great to know If MD or AR are more responsive (especially the AR for it’s analogue nature) on this.
Nothing can do something on this, even the best sequencer.
The problem is avoided only among Elektron’s machines, when matched, or via Overbridge.
If you are just mangling the sounds live, and not sampling or sequencing, then the MD and AR should be fairly similar to the OT. The AR offers the advantage of performance macros.
- that’s a good point, thank you.
Actually I spend a discrete time mangling what outcomes from the Octa.
The chance to pre-write macro sounds change on the AR and managing them dynamically comes handy.
Both MD and AR offers great live tweaking IMHO.
I think it’s absurd to think about a musical instrument as a financial investment. You need to think about what you want to do with an instrument, and then see which instruments will allow you to do that, and then find the best value. If you understand what you want, you are likely to buy the right instrument and not regret it.
If you do not know what you want, buy cheap and second-hand so that if it turns out not to be correct you will minimize your losses.
- I use to ponder a lot on which gear I’m looking for and going to buy. Until now I have no regrets on anything i chose. And surely I relegate my rare GAS to little things.
This time is particular for the nature of these machines, so similar and so complementar, and I really like both a lot…I didn’t came here asking for “which drum machine I should buy”…I’ve just excluded any other option possible, focusing on these two…trying to solve this point is the nature of this post, on the other hand.
I completely agree when you say that musical instruments are not a financial investment.
Really, I carefully select what I need and want/love and do my stuff for reach the target, always.
But money, overall, is something to take care of.
Due to the nature of my actual indecision -starting from the fact that I don’t have the chance to try the products- I have to add this kind of considerations, unfortunately.
I never bought something for it’s price value and will never do it.
I’m a musician, not a trader 
Why do you think that?
- I think that for what expressed before, surely strictly compared to my needs and possibilities.
I think also that this can be a good point for someone else, maybe that does not have clear ideas or just follows the market or tendencies or who can have totally other interests and needs at all, like studios or services…nothing related to us.
It’s just consideration, at the end.
What do you think about, instead?
… although you have a Cirklon, Tempest, and Octatrack, all of which you feel you can ignore for this project!
- I use every single piece of my gear Peter and I worked hard for buying them.
Also this time, I just want to do the correct choice.
Your consideration could sound a bit indelicate, forgive me.
See my previous answer.
- Viewed and read carefully like any other information I had the chance to capture.
Thanks again for the infos you gave me
Are you sure that you will be able to make the sounds you want with an AR if you cannot do so with other analogue drum machines like Tempest, Tanzbar, or Vermona?
If you think the MD’s synthesis is “better”, then why not buy an MD (non-UW)?
If you have a better sequencer (Cirklon or Octatrack) already, then why not buy a powerful-but-simple drum module like Nord Drum 2?
- Well I’m sure, currently.
As I already said, is due to the “closed nature” of the synthesis structure of the machine.
I’ll try to make an example.
If you buy a Roland Tr, a Korg, a Tanzbar, a Vermona or even a Beat, an Aira or a drum module, you will have always the sensation that you are mangling and sculpting a sound. But effectively are the machines itself that are already letting you able to obtain always percussive sounds -rarely obtaining something different- because they’re already designed for doing just this - hoping I’ve expressed myself well.
You can obtain a basic kick form any synth or combination of modules, for example, using a sine wave, closing the filter, increasing the resonance and shaping the forms,tone, and dynamics using ADSR in filtering and amplitude.
In a drum machine and some modules, everything is already hardwired for letting you able to do this for each voice and often just this…so when you tweak a parameter like “snap” or “decay”, in a single tweak you are moving a lot of other stuff simultaneously, like OSCs, ADSRs, LFOs routed for obtain some sound behaviors…and so on.
So, AR, MD, and a lot of other drum machines will let me able to reach the spot because they’re designed this way…and will give me surely the chance to learn something about. Plus they handle samples.
This is not the case of the Tempest.
The Tempest is not properly a drum machine, but an opened synthesizer oriented for sequencing and sculpting FROM ZERO percussive/drum sounds.
It offers you tools for doing that, so you have tons of routing options, tons of OSCs, LFOs and filters putted in there for let you freely design any kind of sounds, partially focused on percussive/drum ones, but absolutely not only for that.
And here comes my gap with it: I can sculpt basic sounds, stop. Cannot reach for now, what I want and need.
I preferred AR, currently, because MD would probably lack more than the other in some of my needs.
But I considered, further in time, and if I will able to do it, to buy a non-UW just as sound generator to import successively into the AR as samples…exactly for its synthesis capabilities…and who know, maybe one day, having both machines I could go to prefer one despite the other, in total opposition to my actual situation!
My real problem is really that I cannot try them.
I think that is easly understandable why I don’t choose a Nord Drum 2, after all what I’ve written
Well…said all these things…with are your two cents for me at the end?
I won’t go wrong, but I think to have understood that you are a MD user and prefer it to the AR. Am I saying the truth?
After all, which is your current drum choice and why?
