Wow that doesnt sound the same!

1-2 · 2022-10-15T11:04:27.728Z

Yes. I am clueless about this kind of stuff, and currently experiencing this now. Of course different speakers, headphones, rooms and environments all sound different. That is why some people, non musicians included emphasize these things, there are options, choices, configurations, and preferences.
Before electrical sound reproduction, people throughout history have given great care to well designed acoustical spaces for amplification, quality of and effect on sound. Natural locations have been sought out which contain these benifical qualities inherently. Body’s shapes and sizes have been refined over the years to bring timbral and tonal distinctions on acoustic instruments.

So of course the physical world has an impact and influence on sound, as physics governs these invisible vibrations

Specific to headphones, one benefit could be a controlled environment, as the average person can not easily change the size of their room, or afford a space specifically designed for improved acoustical response. Even with room treatment, the knowledge, space, and cost may feel out of reach for some.

Well I hopefully do understand some of the basics of sound, but I know next to nothing about mixing and have no real experience. Recently attempting to complete some musical ideas and this very effect has shocked me. Translation

I don’t have monitors set up, so using headphones to attempt to give some quick but clueless refinement to a musical idea and I think I have things sounding pretty ok, then listening in the car jaw drop of shockingly bad, very noticeably off, whole track sound seems ruined. How could I miss this in headphones?
Not even talking about the low freq here, which I noticed at first but have tried to be learning to compensate for, nor in the stereo spread, and I at least don’t think this is a phasing issue. Levels and frequency seem drastically off.

From here, with no proper space- monitor setup to even attempt to get an understanding of what’s going on here, I perhaps foolishly attempt to rebalance things over the speakers in the car. Ok now it is sounding a little better, then checking on headphones again and it sounds worse than it did before on that playback system

Luckily this is all just for learning and fun, no real need to find the sweetspot of compromise between headphone and speaker playback. Perhaps it’s just lack of knowledge but the tradeoff and confusion with this translation seems greater than I would have expected, especially without a decent monitoring setup I suppose. With the specific issue I have, hopefully I could learn to compensate, as people can mix on headphones who know the ins and outs well, but how could I know to avoid the problem if I couldn’t even hear it in the first place. Not wanting to go back and forth to the car too many times, I am not really worried about it, but it is very interesting

Reflecting on this, one thing that has not been mentioned in this thread is that headphones don’t really have a flat response. Target curves are used and there are different ones and frequencys have been compensated to attempt to bring things closer to different perceptions of what is closer to neutral. Individual ear shape must contribute at least something of a variable to differences in perception of sound between different people using the same pair of headphones with the drivers that close to the ear, even a shift in positioning of the phones on my head can haver a noticeable altering of the sound for me. I’m not sure how much this factors in and probably varies person to person, but perhaps in a way this is similar to how room size, shape, acoustics, treatment, speaker placement and listening location can affect sound

If any of this is true, since you can’t change your ears as easily as you can change your headphones, if I am having a problem with misjudging levels in the higher frequency response, maybe getting a brighter headphone would be more informative and get me closer to a flat response, even if it actually isn’t. I like the sound of my headphones just fine, and wouldn’t prefer that for listening, but maybe it would be a better tool

I also wonder about the skewed perception mentioned above in regards to listing to a track over many times as you are making it. If this is done in headphones, do you get a confirmation bias, getting settled in on the familiarity of that specific sound of the track listening through headphones? If I had made it on speakers instead would the first headphone listen then sound strange?

I also dislike the tinny sound of music over a little phone speaker, although they have improved some overtime. This is true even with a lot of different styles of well mixed and mastered commercial music. Hearing something I have made sounds particularly bad in this format. Perhaps I have relied too much on bass for my tracks, if I was doing anything serious I would find some from of saturation to increase the upper harmonics fro improvement here. Or perhaps again the familiarity to your own sound as it’s taking shape, and imbedding into you as you focus on details, just sounds off to you, moreso than a track you have less attachment to. I have not referenced other tracks and don’t use a daw, and have no serious plans to actually release any music. But I have had and can’t imaging stopping having a love for sound and would like to know more

djst · 2022-10-15T11:15:29.988Z

I find this happens all the time to me, although it’s gotten a bit better over time. I’ve learned that mixing relative levels is particularly hard with headphones and much easier with monitors.

natehorn · 2022-10-15T11:36:19.320Z

Suspect_Frequency:

All of my work now starts and ends on a average quality Bluetooth speaker.

There’s a lot to be said for this approach!

I used to work with a software designer that used a modest, poorly calibrated display specifically so they were designing to the environment of the people using the products, rather than appealing to some highly calibrated aesthetic that only he would get to enjoy.

Oxenholme · 2022-10-15T11:47:23.516Z

For relative levels I mix using a pink noise sample a lot. Just set all indivual levels so they’re barely audible above the pink noise and you’ll have a good baseline in my experience, whatever your listening environment.

Jeanne · 2022-10-15T11:50:35.149Z

Suspect_Frequency:

All of my work now starts and ends on a average quality Bluetooth speaker.

This!

On Headphones, everything always sounds awesome and crunchy. And that’s one of the reasons the Yamaha NS-10 monitors - which originally weren’t intended as studio monitors - are legendary.

(Still, good headphones are necessary to find mistakes and hear the fleas cough.)

spikysimon · 2022-10-15T12:02:28.993Z

DaveMech:

The solution is to listen carefully to which problems you have every time you listen back on speakers. And then being very conscious about these the next time you mix on headphones. After some time you will have trained your ears and learn how to get closer to a good mix on headphones.

Totally! I’m pretty happy with mixes on my headphones (with Sonarworks), but I know I usually end up mixing the kicks too loud. I’m not sure why that happens as other bass and sub sit OK. but really it doesn’t matter- I know to pay attention to the kicks, mix them a little lower, and check on my monitors and laptop speakers and fix it

Phillip · 2022-10-15T12:23:23.712Z

This happening to me for years is what drove me to learning mixing and ultimately working as an audio engineer. It fucking sucked that things sounded great in my studio but playing next to professionally mixed records everything fell apart. It is a crumbling feeling. I do not enjoy it.

Noisebuddy · 2022-10-15T12:34:04.877Z

maybe coaxial speakers (ultra-nearfield) can help like the KS-Digital - even in an untreated room

Andreas_R · 2022-10-15T12:56:36.191Z

That + auratone cubes

Endlosregler · 2022-10-15T13:26:10.629Z

Jeanne:

Suspect_Frequency:

All of my work now starts and ends on a average quality Bluetooth speaker.

This!

On Headphones, everything always sounds awesome and crunchy. And that’s one of the reasons the Yamaha NS-10 monitors - which originally weren’t intended as studio monitors - are legendary.

(Still, good headphones are necessary to find mistakes and hear the fleas cough.)

Funny… this just showed up on instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CjfLqRJAWo9/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

djst · 2022-10-15T13:27:44.022Z

Phillip:

This happening to me for years is what drove me to learning mixing and ultimately working as an audio engineer. It fucking sucked that things sounded great in my studio but playing next to professionally mixed records everything fell apart. It is a crumbling feeling. I do not enjoy it.

What are your best tips from your experience?

Phillip · 2022-10-15T14:42:03.090Z

Besides the obvious of learning your headphones/monitors insideand out, learning as many mixing tehniques you can, taking courses and learning from a professional… using properly mixed material within the style you’re producing on for referencing is extremely important. But it only helps if you already tackled the obvious ones which build your listening skills and allows you to effectively reach a goal using the tools at your disposal.

Jeanne · 2022-10-15T16:47:40.505Z

Endlosregler:

Funny… this just showed up on instagram

… perhaps a good time to delete your instagram account

Endlosregler · 2022-10-15T16:59:00.817Z

Jeanne:

Endlosregler:

Funny… this just showed up on instagram

… perhaps a good time to delete your instagram account

Maybe

thermionic · 2022-10-15T20:43:29.482Z

DaveMech:

this is the problem with mixing on headphones. You tend to either push sub or bass too loud depending on the headphones frequency response. Bass is also perceived different as its pressure rather than real vibrations.

Thank you for the reminder! I have monitors but you use the setup that’s most convenient and productive sometimes and forget to A/B regularly.

williohm · 2022-10-15T23:37:59.981Z

I only listen to music either with some type of headphones/ear buds or in the car alone while driving. Because nobody around me shares my tastes and I politely spare them. So when I’m making music I make sure it sounds ok in either of those situations and make adjustments for anything that bothers me. This method hasn’t really failed me yet. And yes, time does initially alter my perceptions so I try to be patient and do a few test listenings before saying it’s finished. This advice is really meant for people like me who can’t afford studio monitors but who’s significant other gifted them $100 headphones for their birthday. I forgot the brand.

Disclaimer - I totally passed an audio engineering course at a community college like 20 years ago so I’m basically a pro 🥸

badbass · 2022-10-16T01:14:47.583Z

The solution for me is to always work in Mono. Reduces so many variables

Sternenlicht · 2022-10-16T01:23:39.535Z

I use gain staging everywhere, there is also an automatic gain staging max for live effect. I mostly level everything down to minus 12 and then boost plus 12 on the master. That gives more range for the faders to work with. Also mixing with faders and closed eyes can help. I do also mostly mono mixes (extta audio out to bluetooth box), and i try to have not too much elements at the same time.

thermionic · 2022-10-16T05:00:25.611Z

badbass:

The solution for me is to always work in Mono. Reduces so many variables

So do you do in the end? Mix in mono and have the mastering engineer mid/side process everything?

percussionboy · 2023-08-20T01:52:05.335Z

This is a good thread and I wanted to revive it.

I am still a baby engineer (with grey hair), trying to check mixes across different brands of headphone and small speakers in an acoustically sinful room (boxy, untreated). Just trying to find some acceptable mix that would work when posting music to the forum, without the bass disappearing or the highs driving icepicks into the listener’s head. The references of professional music I use, and even some of other posters’ work here, are so goddam good, across different speakers/phones … it’s like voodoo, must I sacrifice a child at the full moon? (Unlike some here, I don’t even make club music, … so can say screw the sub—bass.)

So … no useful information here. Just commiserating. It’s a weary battle, but enjoyable to try to mix better.