Work around for MIDI scenes, custom program changes, etc

gbravetti · 2013-12-04T14:30:05.000Z

I just have this idea that could be a workaround for some features I’m missing from the OT and without involving the use of a computer.

The idea is to use the iConnectMIDI2+ as MIDI “interface” for the OT. Also an iOS device running Lemur must be attached to the iConnectMIDI2+.

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In theory all MIDI messages will run IN and OUT normally. Also MIDI will go into the iOS device where Lemur will process it, transform it, create new MIDI messages, etc.

In this way you can have for example:

Fully featured MIDI scenes.

Static and with OT crossfade morphing. The process of assignment would be as simple as when you assign a parameter to an scene on the OT, holding a virtual button, and driving a real parameter on the Analog Four for example.

Customizable Program Change.

You can set patterns A1, A2 and A3, to use pattern A1 on the Analog Four, and patterns A4, A5 and A6 to use pattern A2 on the Analog Four solving the problem that OT has 256 patterns and A4 128 (remember than when you play pattern i1 on the OT the AF plays pattern A1)

One Shot Midi CCs.

You can for example set all performance knobs on the Analog Four to a chosen value at the beginning of a particular OT pattern. And this will happen just one time only. In this way you can perform like a “remote” reload after a “break down”, you will still be able to keep driving those knobs, and they won’t reset each time the pattern restarts.

… and many other things you may need.

I didn’t try this yet because I’m traveling and I left my iConnectMIDI2+ at home but I will start testing as soon as I return.

If you are interested just drop me a message.

glaciertree · 2013-12-05T00:52:32.000Z

That’s an interesting idea. I also thought of an alternative to midi scenes in the OT, but for me it doesn’t involve new hardware. I have a Waldorf synth. One feature that I have not explored yet are the WXYZ modulators (four global modulators) which if I control them from the sliders on my controller, should end up being similar to MIDI scenes. Not as cool, but something interesting anyway.

Rusty · 2013-12-05T02:17:56.000Z

Easy enough to do once you have figured out all the logic and stuff… had this figured out for a while now.

Tricky part (in some ways) is dealing with the limited midi specifications of the devices.

miketheman · 2013-12-05T07:55:45.000Z

Yeah, beware of MIDI latency though.

I haven´t tried connecting everything in my rig (yet). But there are without doubt infinite possibilities. Although, almost each and every piece has the potential risk of screwing any/all midi timing up totally. Since they all got vast possibilities of clogging the midi bandwidth.

Luckily, I´ve got an midi patchbay/router/filter/processor that may get me to avoid some of it. Or all if I set that filter being really rude and mean, but then where lies the fun in connecting all up in that case?

This is what I´m most afraid of, cause it may be REALLY tricky to solve. If possible at all in some cases…

zeropoint · 2013-12-05T13:38:26.000Z

Been imagining the same thing while using (I think Void’s OT Lemur template?). I am a total noob with lemur though . I’ve had a go at creating a super- template by adding MK7’s MD Morphor but I’m getting a loop somewhere. Midi scenes as an add-on would be very cool indeed.

BTW Gustavo do you know how to set up the Lemur app to get midi returning to the OT template via the ICM 2 + . I had it working once with midi bridge but can’t figure it out in this case.

Also while on the subject of the ICM 2 +, it’s a shame you can’t use the midi side of things without the dock connector stealing the audio from the headphone outs. IOS 6 made it possible to utilize both simultaneously but I wish they offered it as a setting rather than on a per app basis. Because apart from a single DJ app, nothing takes advantage of it. It would be so cool to feed audio from the iPad to the OT without routing via the laptop or switching to another midi interface. Besides I’m get things weird interference with the ipad audio with it when used as part of an aggregate device. Standalone audio is fine though.

MK7 · 2013-12-05T16:14:30.000Z

The MD Morphor essentially does something like MIDI scenes.

Tbh, however, I use it only at home or just for fun, not on stage, because I don’t like the idea that my gear might “collapse” due to too much MIDI traffic. At least the “drum core” and some melodies should run rock solid. If you intend to send a lot of MIDI data, then I would make sure that you don’t send the data to synths/machines you essentially need (for instance, a Waldorf Blofeld can end up doing nothing more than beeeeeeeeep anymore and you need to install an emergency OS to reinstall the OS, but when it’s just a secondary synth you could risk to shoot 'em down). The MD seems not so sensitive, but I had to reboot it sometimes which doesn’t take long but might interrupt when it delivers the main groove.

With an OT in your setup, you can take more risk, i.e., spam CC messages around, as long as the OT doesn’t receive much data and you regularly sample your other gear during a show and have enough pre-recorded loops so that you could eventually shut everything else down.

EDIT: the idea sounds plausible, should work with Lemur (assuming that the crossfader sends some information when it’s being moved, which I don’t know if it’s the case).

gbravetti · 2013-12-06T00:07:54.000Z

@glaciertree,
Sounds nice, anyway it involves the use of new hardware, doesn’t it?

@Rusty,

“Tricky part (in some ways) is dealing with the limited midi specifications of the devices.”

There is when MAX knowledges com in handy.

@miketheman,

"Yeah, beware of MIDI latency though.

I haven´t tried connecting everything in my rig (yet). But there are without doubt infinite possibilities. Although, almost each and every piece has the potential risk of screwing any/all midi timing up totally. Since they all got vast possibilities of clogging the midi bandwidth."

It is supposed that between MIDI dim connectors on the iCM2+ latency must be hardware like.
I think latency for new MIDI messages generated in Lemur won’t be an issue.

About clogging:

By the use of the MIDI LFOs you can transmit 24 MIDI CC with rate of 50/s.
This is 1200MIDI CC/second.

If Elektron 's guys allowed this, it won’t be a problem to have let’s say 10CC at a speed of 30/s, more than enough to control my A4 10 performance knobs.

@zeropoint,

“BTW Gustavo do you know how to set up the Lemur app to get midi returning to the OT template via the ICM 2 + . I had it working once with midi bridge but can’t figure it out in this case.”

I don’t understand “returning to the OT template”, what do you mean?

glaciertree · 2013-12-06T01:27:43.000Z

""gbravetti"":

@glaciertree,
Sounds nice, anyway it involves the use of new hardware, doesn’t it?

@gbravetti
It involves additional hardware anyway. I already own it, so it is really just exploring something I already have.

miketheman · 2013-12-06T12:00:44.000Z

""undefined"":

It is supposed that between MIDI dim connectors on the iCM2+ latency must be hardware like.
I think latency for new MIDI messages generated in Lemur won’t be an issue.

About clogging:

By the use of the MIDI LFOs you can transmit 24 MIDI CC with rate of 50/s.
This is 1200MIDI CC/second.

If Elektron 's guys allowed this, it won’t be a problem to have let’s say 10CC at a speed of 30/s, more than enough to control my A4 10 performance knobs.

I´m not sure that I´m following you here:

24 MIDI CC? Do you mean values or specifically different CC number (with values on each)?
Either way, 10CC probably won´t be too much of an issue in your case.

Anyway, if one are going to have specific setup of midi clock (distribution), note (transceived), pitch bend, after touch, CC values manually + LFO´s (transceived), PC/pattern changes (once in a while). Certain situations may get tricky, because of simply overloading the midi bandwidth. Turbo MIDI may be your friend. But with everything else (non-Elektron) this might be where specific filter, thru and merge setups comes in, to get everything as tight synced as you want it to be without hiccups…

I am very curious of how your setup would be in this case, gbravetti. Which unit is the master (and regarding what type of control: note, CC, PC, clock and so on)?

gbravetti · 2013-12-06T13:08:46.000Z

""gbravetti"":

@glaciertree,
Sounds nice, anyway it involves the use of new hardware, doesn’t it?

@Rusty,

“Tricky part (in some ways) is dealing with the limited midi specifications of the devices.”

There is when MAX knowledges com in handy.

@miketheman,

"Yeah, beware of MIDI latency though.

I haven´t tried connecting everything in my rig (yet). But there are without doubt infinite possibilities. Although, almost each and every piece has the potential risk of screwing any/all midi timing up totally. Since they all got vast possibilities of clogging the midi bandwidth."

It is supposed that between MIDI dim connectors on the iCM2+ latency must be hardware like.
I think latency for new MIDI messages generated in Lemur won’t be an issue.

About clogging:

By the use of the MIDI LFOs you can transmit 24 MIDI CC with rate of 50/s.
This is 1200MIDI CC/second.

If Elektron 's guys allowed this, it won’t be a problem to have let’s say 10CC at a speed of 30/s, more than enough to control my A4 10 performance knobs.

@zeropoint,

“BTW Gustavo do you know how to set up the Lemur app to get midi returning to the OT template via the ICM 2 + . I had it working once with midi bridge but can’t figure it out in this case.”

I don’t understand “returning to the OT template”, what do you mean?

Got your point.

gbravetti · 2013-12-06T13:34:52.000Z

[quote=““miketheman””]

undefined:

It is supposed that between MIDI dim connectors on the iCM2+ latency must be hardware like.
I think latency for new MIDI messages generated in Lemur won’t be an issue.

About clogging:

By the use of the MIDI LFOs you can transmit 24 MIDI CC with rate of 50/s.
This is 1200MIDI CC/second.

If Elektron 's guys allowed this, it won’t be a problem to have let’s say 10CC at a speed of 30/s, more than enough to control my A4 10 performance knobs.

I´m not sure that I´m following you here:

24 MIDI CC? Do you mean values or specifically different CC number (with values on each)?
Either way, 10CC probably won´t be too much of an issue in your case.

Anyway, if one are going to have specific setup of midi clock (distribution), note (transceived), pitch bend, after touch, CC values manually + LFO´s (transceived), PC/pattern changes (once in a while). Certain situations may get tricky, because of simply overloading the midi bandwidth. Turbo MIDI may be your friend. But with everything else (non-Elektron) this might be where specific filter, thru and merge setups comes in, to get everything as tight synced as you want it to be without hiccups…

I am very curious of how your setup would be in this case, gbravetti. Which unit is the master (and regarding what type of control: note, CC, PC, clock and so on)?[/quote]
I tested 24 different CC# (3per track) each modulated by LFOs. This gave me more than 1200 CC messages per second.

My setup in what concerns to MIDI is: OT acting as MIDI clock and transport master, the A4 is acting as slave using its own sequencer, and Ableton Live also as slave, using it’s own sequencer or acting as sound module.

Even sending 1200 extra MIDI messages per second and without using turbo, MIDI clock sync performed flawlessly without any noticeable jitter.

My only real concern is MIDI clock jitter, the rest I can deal.

KrisM · 2013-12-06T18:08:26.000Z

""gbravetti"":

I tested 24 different CC# (3per track) each modulated by LFOs. This gave me more than 1200 CC messages per second.

My setup in what concerns to MIDI is: OT acting as MIDI clock and transport master, the A4 is acting as slave using its own sequencer, and Ableton Live also as slave, using it’s own sequencer or acting as sound module.

Even sending 1200 extra MIDI messages per second and without using turbo, MIDI clock sync performed flawlessly without any noticeable jitter.

My only real concern is MIDI clock jitter, the rest I can deal.

Sequencing like a Boss o.O

zeropoint · 2013-12-07T15:22:49.000Z

@ gbravetti. I was assuming you are already using the ICM 2 + with the lemur app. If so I’m trying to work out how to get the OT template I mentioned to update with control movements, mutes etc performed on the OT itself. Like I say I managed it a while ago using Midibridge but not with the ICM 2 +.

@ MK7

Thanks for making the template available. yeah, I’m finding the MD goes ape here and there ( and not always in a good way !) with the Morphor . I can’t say I’ve got it under control yet plus some gremlins might have crept in with my limited lemurs editing skills when importing it into the OT template. I’ll see if I can filter out unnecessary messages using the ICM 2 +. and keep messing .

gbravetti · 2013-12-11T01:50:29.000Z

@zeropoint,

I haven’t my iCM2+ here with me so I can’t be sure but I guess that after connecting the iCM2 to the iOS device, in Lemur you’ll have 4 new Targets to assign to the MIDI Targets “From:” and “To:”. The 2 MIDI dims plus the two USB connectors.

To get your template updated you should set Target 00 on lemur to the iCM2+ MIDI dim you have your OT connected, then on the template probably all objects will be set to Target 00 so it should be working. If not you should check if control objects are assigned to Target 00

Also to get a CC from the OT transform it and send it to the A4 you could proceed as follows.

You can assign a total of 8 Targets to Lemur so assign Target 00 to the iCM2+ MIDI Dim where the OT is connected, then Target 01 to the iCM2+ MIDI Dim where the A4 is connected.

You can create two controls objects and attach one of them to Target 00 CCXX Chan XX and the second control object to Target 01 CCXX Chan XX, then link both control objects X property (here is where the CC actual value is hold) and in the process we can add some mathematical functions conditions etc to process CC value.

In this way the chosen CC coming from the OT is converted, “processed” and sent to the A4.

This way is bidirectional so I guess it will be easier to implement some kind of Learn Mode so you can use the actual A4 knobs to assign a parameter and or value to a virtual scene in the same way you do with OT parameters.

Other way will be using script on single objects. With a couple of lines you can get a CC from a target convert its value and send it to another target.

You asked about to

As I said this is just theory but I have a good feeling about this.
I’ll get my hands dirty as soon as I return home.

Keep you posted.

PS. And if all this doesn’t work I’ll construct a “MIDI Scene box” with Arduino based. I already did some native MIDI talking appliances based on Arduino and so far so good.

miketheman · 2013-12-11T08:23:28.000Z

@gbravetti

Yes, please keep us updated. For myself, I am very eager to see what you´ll come up with to get some inspiration. Just to figure out how I could possibly want to incorporate my OT with my other stuff…

zeropoint · 2013-12-27T17:54:00.000Z

@gbravetti…thanks, that’s how I have it set up but it’s just not working for me at the moment. like I say I did get it working once with midibridge before I got the ICM 2 + but I can’t seem to repeat it now with that either. I’ll carry on messing with it…