Will Brexit bring prices down in UK if we do a WTO deal

The Lounge General Discussion
#82

It always annoys me in politics generally when politicians claim ‘People are telling me XYW’, ‘Voters on the doorsteps are asking …’, ‘There’s a lot of anger out there’, ‘The media are pushing a false agenda’ etc

Totally unsubstantiated mercurial claims are used ever more frequently as repeated soundbites to convince people that that there is some huge popular or enlightened movement in some direction or another that they must align with; or that news and inconvenient facts are fake and it is better to just believe the politician instead, who is fighting nobly and selflessly in their best interests. Voices urging dealing with facts, knowledge or objective rationale are ‘arrogant’ or ‘fear-mongering’; even if they are just questioning assumptions based on vapor.

All that ever matters is the ballot box, unfortunately, as effective as advertising of products is at convincing people to buy one brand over another or purchasing items they don’t need or can’t afford, whispers, false nuances, innuendo and outright lies and manipulation are extremely effective at swaying perceptions.
Most people are totally unqualified to know whether Brexit truly is a good or a bad thing for the UK (nobody can really know or understand the short, medium or long term ramifications) yet people have subconsciously dug their heels in on one side of the line or the other, even if only by inches, because that’s the way our brain likes to work.

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#83

It’s good to have a sensible debate about it! It’s right to draw parallels with the darkest points of the 20th century and now (economic crises, struggle over resources, a rise in populism / semi-dictatorial regimes). Racism is still a huge problem in society, & the continued rise of people like Tommy Robinson etc demonstrates this (worryingly with international financial backing). These issues are being exploited to pursue certain agendas: the liberal market establishment don’t want the status quo to change so will brandish those with personal & financial security issues as racist / stupid etc; darker elements will stoke individual fears to further an agenda that is geniunely fascistic/racist. It’s a well worn approach to divide those in difficult circumstances. I’d argue the causes of Brexit go back to the decimation of industry / community, several years of austerity, where the costs stemming from the negligence of the financial services industry were offloaded on to society at large, & a media only happy to make gains from underemployment, low wages & spiralling housing costs. But we should all be on the same side, asking difficult questions about transparency & accountability. Unfortunately our social media algorhythms keep us in echo chambers & sometimes pointing the finger in the wrong direction.

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#84

Just to be clear: are you saying the US media is calling UK nationalists or US nationalists racists?

If the latter, its higly likely an American nationalist is racist. There is not much American nationalism to stand on so its often a substitute for racism.

#85

US media has lumped US, UK and Hindu nationalists altogether as racists. China, oddly, seems to have avoided being branded in this fashion. I’ve yet to meet anyone in favor of domestic protectionist trade policies that thinks racism is part of the platform to move forward.

#86

Well I cant speak on the nuances of UK, Hindu nationalism but American nationalism - MAGA, America 1st - is euphemism for white supremacy.

Now if we’re talkin protectionist economic policies thats a totally different thing. You don’t often hear the word nationalist used in an economoc context.

#87

Uh huh, tell us more.

maga+hat+sf.jpg810×455 26 KB

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#88

So some rando dude in a MAGA hat is supposed to prove whats pretty obvious from Trump himself to Charlottesville?

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#89

Is it necessarily so? Are you saying that you believe US patriots are all racist? Even the non white ones? I think the US has a lot to be proud of, and of course like virtually every other nation a lot not to be proud of, celebration of accomplishment and achievements does not equate to racism and it definitely doesn’t cancel out darker moments, but to me it seems that patriotism is quite separate from racism.

I get that often racists are self proclaimed patriots, but I don’t think it is accurate to call all patriots racist.

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#90

Werent we talking about nationalists / nationalism?

I would never assume call patriotism / patriots racists. They might be very proud of the US’ melting pot.

My point is that in the States anyway, “nation” is a thin foundation to stand on. It means “white”.

#91

I didn’t mean to misrepresent what you were saying, and if you feel that I was then I apologise, I don’t see much distinction between nationalism and patriotism, these terms are often used interchangeably, so it could well be my misunderstanding.

I guess what I’m trying to articulate (possibly badly) is that it is all too easy to label people we might politically disagree with as some “other” and I don’t think it is constructive to do so, it is exactly the kind of thing which will ultimately push people (on both sides) to extremes.

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#92

I more or less agree. I think the main problem is how people approach these issues (that goes for “both sides” :slight_smile: ) So I think it would be much more constructive to tell people “These ideas you have are racist” as opposed to “YOU KKK RACIST DIE”

But then that latter attitude helps the antagonizing leaders to further drive people apart.

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#93

Absolutely - I have no sympathy for actual racists getting called out on their bullshit.

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#94

Isnt Brexit in large part due to EU immigration expectations?

Though of course it wouldn’t necessarily mean racism re eastern europeans.

#95

It’s multifaceted, but it would be naive to assume that was not a factor. Though interestingly a recent international poll (can’t remember which) had the UK rate highly with regards to attitudes towards to economic migrants & not so well with regards to refugees :thinking:

There is a view that the EU is a bloated bureaucracy that it is full of self-serving administrators and gets in the way of making sovereign decisions. The Rail and Maritime trade union are against the EU as they believe it would block attempts to renationalise the rail service (as set out in current competition and procurement rules). People across the political spectrum voted remain and to leave, so there is no simple answer.

#96

Being half-Polish I would add there is sometimes very nasty xenophobia and the Polish cultural centre in London was daubed with graffiti after the vote.

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#97

I think it is largely due to a few reasons, partly the bad management of immigration more than immigration itself - lots of documented cases of organised human trafficking of criminals, including coaching them how to fiddle the good will of the countries taking them in, genuine worries of local work being outsourced, housing being set aside specifically for refugees whilst locals still remain homeless, the NHS and schools being barely able to cope, and a whole host of other quite legitimate concerns.

It should be noted that poverty rates in the UK are a fair bit worse than in Germany and France, so this probably reflects why in poorer areas most voted to leave, they don’t put refugees in prestigious London boroughs or places like the Cotswolds etc.

#98

I understand that its not the only driving factor. I wouldn’t say Trump’s victory was due to only racism.

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#99

The irony is that current EU rules already state that migrants must prove that they are either working, actively seeking work or self-sufficient. Otherwise, they can be removed after three months.
Other EU countries operate a worker registration system to implement this.

The UK itself didn’t bother to better control its own immigration, which it could have done under these rules.

Another Brexit myth busted: membership of the EU is not the cause of over-immigration into the UK - the UK let it happen in spite of existing EU rules.

A cynic might suggest that this was a deliberate abandonment of EU policy in order to fan the flames of nationalist sentiment (the bad kind) and lay the building blocks for swaying the direction of the referendum.

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#100

Yep, living in Scandinavia, those rules are enforced and make sense. Similarly, you can not claim social benefits without making a certain amount of tax contributions beforehand.

#101

Also it is interesting to note that most farmers in areas where EU subsidies are not granted unanimously voted to leave, already they are struggling and suicide rates in the sector are quite high, I believe that this mainly affects English farmers more so that Scotland and Wales, so in those areas remain was more common.