Why do so few grooveboxes have thoughtful workflows around laying out a whole song?

Lizard-of-Oz · 2025-04-12T09:12:23.774Z

MellowTron:

I’m curious what those modifiers you refer to are?

Probably Filter, Transform (= transpose using scales) and Quantize, all of which can be used as parts of a performance. Also Modwheel remap can be done on the fly.

g3o2:

Plus, limitations are what pushes our knowledge of tooling. Without any limitations, there too many possibilities and there can be no craft.

For some people limitations can do that, but as a normative perspective that is rather limiting. People are different, some people thrive on limits, others thrive on possibilities. Denying them what you refer to as “craft” appears a bit of an overreach.

For example, what pushes me to expand my knowledge is the the joy of discovering how complex machines can facilitate things that were previously not only out of my reach, but also out of my imagination. In turn, this brings a lot of focus and consciousness to my practice.

There is nothing wrong with simple tools, but they are not per se better than complex tools, they just have a different application. And when you discover you struggle with limitations, it may very well be a symptom of using the wrong tool, or one that you have outgrown, rather growing pains of a craftsman.

It’s much akin to learning a programming language, there are simple and limited languages, and there are powerful and elegant languages. Of course you can theroetically solve any problem with either of those. However in practice you might have to write a page of code for something that the other language expresses in one single line:

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In many cases, this is a waste of time and cognitive capacity, because you might as well have invested them into making progress with what you wanted to achieve.

There is nothing wrong with simple tools, but they are not per se better than complex tools, they just have a different application. So selecting the appropriate tool is a personal choice of where you want to invest your cognitive capacity.

So each struggle with limitations might either be growing pains of a craftsman of mastering a tool, or merely a symptom of using the wrong tool, or one that you have outgrown.

g3o2 · 2025-04-12T11:50:22.896Z

MellowTron:

I’m curious what those modifiers you refer to are? I have and use the RK, but I’m always discovering new things I didn’t know about it

Real-time note and velocity quantisation. The latter is mostly because, as a trained pianist, performing on synth action semi-weight keys can be a bit too sensitive.

Lizard-of-Oz:

There is nothing wrong with simple tools, but they are not per se better than complex tools

That was my point. The last sentence in my post states that “power is nothing without control.”

Your greater knowledge and experience enable you to wield and appreciate the complexity that comes along with more advanced tools. Our tools have to grow with our knowledge and experience. Unfortunately, it does not work the other way around.

In addition, the greater the knowledge and experience with tools, both simple and advanced, the higher the tendency to revert back to simple or, perhaps more precisely, essential tools.

Kja · 2025-04-12T13:21:08.156Z

My mind is all messed up… I used to take my ko2 with me to record little ideas or loops that I would import into a greater idea in the mpc that would become a song… But now the ko2 has a song mode too…lol.
It just shows how far we have come with this stuff that even the little portable stuff can do while done pretty well now.

Kegeratorz · 2025-04-12T14:06:12.150Z

I’ve heard awesome releases made entirely with a PO-33! I suppose grove is the heart!

Fin25 · 2025-04-12T14:31:50.079Z

No.

Groove is in that one feature that’s missing.

Kegeratorz · 2025-04-12T14:40:00.762Z

If only it had (insert feature here), it would be perfect!

GurtTractor · 2025-04-12T14:45:11.578Z

Lizard-of-Oz:

Get a Pyramid instead. Cheaper, too.

Where I’m at the Pyramid is significantly more expensive than the RK008.

aMunchkinElfGraduate · 2025-04-12T14:52:04.669Z

The “Hello, World!” program is intended to be an educational exercise. A high-level language like Python has a pretty straightforward way to output “Hello, World!”, but it kind of defeats the point of learning something in the process.

About fifteen years ago, I won a pair of tickets to a concert on the radio. I invited an amateur musician friend who worked in the computer industry. In the car ride to the concert, I told him I wanted to improve my general computer skills. He responded that I should work on regular expressions.

Recently, another friend tells me how he uses AI to form regular expressions. And other friends, when I tell them I want to change my website from static html to dynamic (sqlite/php), giving me the same suggestion: Type a prompt into AI and seeing what comes out.

Lizard-of-Oz:

So selecting the appropriate tool is a personal choice of where you want to invest your cognitive capacity.

Agreed, there are many things in life where I’m more focused on the outcome than I am the process. I use many small command-line utilities in the making of my student videos. And I only have a surface understanding of each of those utilities.

But there is a point where the conventional notion of what it means to be “smart” (getting more done with less mental effort) crosses over into ignorance and stupidity.

Lizard-of-Oz · 2025-04-12T15:41:28.407Z

GurtTractor:

Where I’m at the Pyramid is significantly more expensive than the RK008,.

My mistake, I looked at the full version with side panel for around 400, the normal version without battery isf 350€, used Pyramids roughly go for the same price, then.

aMunchkinElfGraduate:

The “Hello, World!” program is intended to be an educational exercise.

And therefore it was the simplest way to get two pictures of code in different languages that does the exact same thing. Otherwise people would have responded that it‘s not the same.

aMunchkinElfGraduate:

ecently, another friend tells me how he uses AI to form regular expressions.

Certainly possible for simple or complicated expressions. Entirely futile for complex problems.

aMunchkinElfGraduate:

And other friends, when I tell them I want to change my website from static html to dynamic (sqlite/php), giving me the same suggestion: Type a prompt into AI and seeing what comes out.

might be a good idea to check out static site generators like Jekyll, because the often offer enough flexibility for creating content easily without all the overhead a dynamic tech stack brings.

aMunchkinElfGraduate:

But there is a point where the conventional notion of what it means to be “smart” (getting more done with less mental effort) crosses over into ignorance and stupidity.

True. And that is when you no longer understand what is going on, because then you are unable to react appropriately when things don‘t go as planned.

g3o2:

Our tools have to grow with our knowledge and experience. Unfortunately, it does not work the other way around.

It does seem to work for guitars, pianos and computers, pros and n00bs use the same thing, in entirely different ways.

captain8 · 2025-04-13T02:50:16.650Z

doesn’t make sense to validate musicianship/ theory but eschew electronic musical instrument compositional standards and practices in electronic music imo… put a slicer in your sampler, put a filter in your synth, and stop acting like it’s asking too much.
my name’s not brushy one string, for one thing he’s way funkier than I could ever be.

jiGGins · 2025-04-13T16:57:50.089Z

The RK08 looks good and the size is awesome but I am finding it hard these days to justify hooking up a separate device purely for sequencing when there is a lot of gear out there that can sequence and produce sound at the same time.

I do like the MMT8 as previously stated but I wish gear manufacturers would implement its worlflow into modern devices. The MMT8 takes up a big chunk of retail estate on the desktop just for sequencing and hitting a few track mutes. Actually the MMT8 doesn’t have swing which I regard as obligatory these days, however the MMT8 allowed you to get granular quite easily shifting steps around so you could dial in MPC-style swing shifttng just the 4th, 8th, 12th & 16th notes in the sequence

I dunno. I love the MMT8 but when I stare at it and consider hooking it up I don’t know what to hook it up to these days to compliment it. I have more grooveboxes as apposed to rackmount samplers and sound modules like I used to. Plus its a big device and more and more I am looking to do everything with just 2 devices or 3 maximum

Katmat · 2025-04-13T17:22:43.403Z

Back when I was using my Roland mc50 I got really used to using it fully for sequencing and using any other devices as sound modules even if they had their own sequencer. The timing on a central sequencer between all gear is rock solid in a way I’ve never had with a daw or separate sequencers. And so incredibly fast to fire up and just start laying down parts. Like turn the power on a few units and start recording within 10-20 seconds.

jiGGins · 2025-04-13T17:48:28.255Z

I agree that using a central sequencer gives rock sold timing and some old sequencers were popular for their timing. When a device is sync’d to midi clock its on-board sequencer loses timing resolution as it follows the incoming midi clock. Triggering directly from the onboard sequencer always sounds tighter

Considering that midi sequencers are just mathematical counting devices it should not be the case that some of them in the past had their own “groove”. But a lot of them did and became famous for it. Whether it was down to the old processing technology not being exact or some other electronic considerations I am not exactly sure but some sequencers sounded great and some not so. I remember the Korg ES-1 sounded pretty bad. Actually the MMT8 was a bit sloppy but in a nice way

g3o2 · 2025-04-13T19:16:05.806Z

jiGGins:

a central sequencer gives rock sold timing and some old sequencers were popular for their timing

I use the 1010music Blackbox to control the Rk8 for both click track and timing, that one is most rock-solid. Rk8’s clock is good enough though but when I want to print to audio, Blackbox needs to be in charge, so Blackbox stays in charge during the whole process.

Katmat · 2025-04-13T19:57:25.139Z

How is 1010 for arranging full songs? Trying to figure out if it’s any better than the usual Groovebox pattern chaining

g3o2 · 2025-04-13T20:05:18.287Z

Writing full songs with the Blackbox usually only works up to a certain point, beyond which you will need another machine (eg a second BB), several presets with a consolidating preset (which is pretty convoluted) or a DAW. The point varies with the complexity of the piece of music - sometimes everything can be done within the BB.

I use BB for sketching out ideas (with sequencer and song mode) and recording final versions of material as clips, both tasks at which BB excels. For the last five years, I have recorded everything through Blackbox.

At some point, and latest when I hit the 16 pads limit, it is time to move into the box, usually Loopy Pro, which is similar to the BB and where I can then experiment with the various parts and song sections to bring the song into form. After this point I move into a DAW.

bibenu · 2025-04-15T06:29:57.087Z

rephazed:

a starting template with eight groups (Drums, Bass, Groove, Percussion, Lead, Harmony, Vox, Atmo/FX) to stay organized.

I’d be interested to know more about your split between drums, groove and percussion.

Bardial · 2025-04-15T06:37:05.924Z

I’m very happy with the system of polyend tracker. It’s very very basic, but I’ve never done more songs in my life. You can’t mute tracks in one pattern to copy/paste and unmute, but you have plenty of patterns to use (256). And the ability to name that patterns works great, I use it to take notes of things that I need to change, etc… It’s an archaic method but works. You have visual clue where you are and you can see the overall song easily.

LCVL · 2025-04-15T08:22:24.600Z

Such a brilliant feature…

rephazed · 2025-04-15T11:27:54.049Z

I’ve been using Erik’s Rapid Flow template in my DAW workflow (have it in both Bitwig & Live) to speed up track production. It has 8 primary channels corresponding to the eight groups I mention and everything routes to these 8. It feels constraining, but for me it is a good discipline so whenever I use hardware, my end goal is to end up with material that fits one of these 8 channels. So the Maschine+ fits this really well because I now have 8 primary groups. If I need more than 8 groups I can route audio to one of these 8, but my end goal is to end up with no more than 8 stems to bring into my DAW for the final mix & render. Here’s the video about the template; you’ll see the template right around second 23:

For me, who is very disorganized & messy, it’s just a good discipline I got myself into keep track and stay on point. This approach with other gear too, like MC707, M8, Digitakt.