hardware for me is just more fun… but way not as straight forward , and with way less possibilitys. but in the end it really doesn’t matter at all.
Btw here is how my setup went. Probably I did the same as you did before… I had ableton and a single MPC49 kontroller for 3 years. I didn’t struggle with sound but I did struggle with finishing tracks and having a ‘flow’. I had about 80 full-blown loops but no build-up and release.
Then I’ve decided to get some gear… I bought the tanzbar first and the AK 2 months later. At first I was struggling with the setup just as you do. But later I started to think about a method for pattern & track management. here is how it goes for me:
- My master unit is the AK (not just clock/midi wise). I do everything I can on the AK
- The DT has all my sample that can’t ne p[roduced with the other two… usually ‘real’ samples. Real = vocals, speech, samuari sword etc… so no kicks and single shots
- the tanzbar is running on ‘freestyle’ mode that means I mostly use a single pattern for all the staright kicks, highhats and so on… the basic groove if you will… this is running on a single pattern. I’m only switching when I have to mix tho the next track.
- on the analog keys I usually split one bank for 8/8 patterns I just force myself to use 8 patterns / track no matter what
- I never use more than one project
thats just me of course… the point is that you have a plan and you stick to it.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that wen it comes to the AK/A4 KITS are your best friends… and of course the performance knobs are golden too.
I believe that you can do any kind of music with any kind of equipment or software. There are of course a few restrictions, I´d rather play an organ piece by JS Bach on a large church organ than on my small electronic rehearsal-organ that I have at home but you get the idea. Most music that I actually release and from which I gain a substantial part of my monthly income was recorded using almost only software. Most important part of my studio is what I call good infrastructure: good monitors (and the time you need to make yourself familiar with them), a good interface, a comfortable environment / view and place to put your tea. Everything else is just for fun and quite optional in my opinion.
It is almost impossible to draw the line between hardware, software, digital and analog these days. Take a modular system - the blueprint of analog equipment. If you take a close look you will find a lot of modules that are dsp based. “Analog” synths like the highly expensive Pro2 has more DSP chips than a Virus TI. The VSTi “Repro-1” from U-He sounds a lot better and is a worthy successer of the “Pro-1”. After a weekend with this plugin I never used the Pro2 again and was happy to see another price-hike at Dave Smith Instruments that made minimised my loss selling the synth.
Another topic that came up here: What is a liveset? A definition that works for me is: “the person on stage / behind the DJ booth plays only his own music”. With mass compatible electronic music that is based on sequencers and loops the concept of playing live is rather limited. I am provocative here: am I playing an organ piece that practiced 50 hours live in a concert? What I am doing here as a professional musician is so much automatic that I could read a book or tie my shoes during my play. Is that more “live” than “hitting a few buttons” in a club? Everyone who put together an hour-long liveset and played it in a club with actual people in front of you knows that you never just sit there and wait until your pattern changes. A lot of stuff that sounded great in your studio does not work and other sounds that you came up with on the fly hit the right spot during your set.
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my approach about live act when it comes to party music (so not ambient or other ‘bpm independent’ styles) is that I never risk ‘f.cking up the groove’, no matter what. So I only play something live on the keys when I know I can pull it off in perfect tempo… for me it is really painful to hear when a DJ messes up a good set with a bad transition… so I’m trying to do the same in techno/house, even if it means I have to rely on automation. I’m also trying to find a sweet-spot were I feel busy but I can’t really ruin the set for the people on the dancefloor. Yet it makes me a bit mad when I see some famous musician’s live act and it is a macbook pro w. a single MPC mini, where I paid double because its live…
wow. that guy sounds threatened by your ITB music making ;}
let me guess, he thought you need to have a real TR-909? and you can only play techno on vinyl, with technics 1200 decks and Shure M44-7 cartridges? And you can only use Sennheiser HD25 headphones to DJ?
that guy sounds like a relic from the 90s
You use the equipment that you have at your disposal to the best of your ability. Software or hardware, it makes much less of a difference than you, the operator. If you are struggling with the rytm’s drum synthesis on certain sounds, try using samples. Or try making a part of your drum sounds with the A4. If the A4 osc sounds off to you, use rytms synthesis for synth sounds. Or use rytm’s sample capability to make single cycle waveforms that you can use for synth sounds. Many, many ways to deal with practical probs, you just need to sit down a bit at times and make plans, try different ways to accomplish your targets.
whenever someone starts with ”you need X to make Y” nonsense, they are usually trying to make you feel inferior… quite often its a defense mechanism and a sign of insecurity.
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I have had similar feelings about Ableton vs. Hardware. Or being overwhelmed with too much gear. For me, it’s about time, energy, and focus. I have some deep machines like the Rytm which are incredible and filled with potential for sound design and performance options. But, like others have said, can feel very much like fine detailed programming, which is sometimes not what I need after a long day at work, or when I’m tired, etc.
For this reason, I also have simple more simple wysiwyg machines like the Roland TR-8, MS20, etc. They are great to get in a quick jam if I have limited time. Just tweak knobs without thinking or planning too much.
I find having a few machines with a variety of complexity levels ensure I am ready to make music no matter my time & energy levels. And Ableton is always there to finish things off or supplement with vst when needed.
So, I think it’s not so much about hardware vs. software, but rather different tools for different occasions. Software + complex hardware + simple hardware works for me.
Since you seemed to enjoy the sounds of 808/909 I’d recommend trying the TR-8 or Roland TR-08 and TR-09.
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Exactly.
Sure some people are really good at making great patterns on the fly but often I’d prefer listening to something prepared compared to unorganized jamming. A band prepare themselves as well. There is no general rule. Depends also on the style of music. Somebody who makes heavy use of samples has to use stems… completly different situation to synthetic sound only. Not every electronic liveset is techno.
Imagine four tet with synths only. A lot of magic would be lost of his sound. Just as an example.
You still can do a lot with remixing on the fly, making nice transitions, using effects, create tension. This can keep you very busy.
You could also use a laptop and a controller to play software synths or sampled instruments live.
A laptop says nothing about the quality of the liveset or the musician.
How many boring uses of drummachine jamming have you heard. I for my taste a lot
hey thats exactly what I am feeling. I just want to get fast results after a long day when the kids are sleeping at 9. I think thats why I sometimes have more fun with my microbrute. Thats because its simple. Yes thats a good approach.
To get the Rytm and the A4 sound as I want is realy hard work for me and takes a lot of time.
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There’s no reason to “need” them to make good music and if another way is easier for you you could be better off just going that way and not having to rework everything and start over…
But the boxes are awesome and if you want to keep them around they might be fun and you might end getting much more out of them, but if you don’t then whatever just use something else…
The definition is KINK 
I think mostly it’s about what you make, not about the gear. Think of it like when you first started using DAW, it probably wasn’t the easiest thing to deal with, and I bet you had tons of ideas in your head that you couldn’t implement until you learned how it all works first.
I think in something like ableton or any advanced DAW, you can compose ANYTHING, there are waaaay less restrictions on the DAW than lots of the hardware out there. That can be either a good or a bad thing.
A couple of years ago I started to get interested in producing dance music (techno, house…etc), before that I used to make lots of hiphop beats which depended on samples, Ableton was really friendly with that since it didn’t limit me in any way. Though when I started to make ‘edm’ I found it hard to imitate the actual ‘feel’ of the genre; there were lots of small rhythmical details here and there that were common in lots of tracks in the genre. It was hard for me to re-create these on Ableton because I always used to listen to tracks and try to figure out where they placed this rimshot, or this sub bass kick, or whatever it is.
I remember I found it especially hard recreating ‘UK garage’, I was always thinking ‘man these are genius people thinking about rhythm’.
Now that all changed once I got my A4, and then the Digitakt (which I use as a drum machine). There had been a really small idea that I never got around my head first, and when I realised it, my life changed:
Most hardware sequencers (At least that I know of) always divide the notes to 1/16th. I realised that this was a common factor in lots of ‘EDM’ when I sometimes just started pressing buttons randomly on the sequencer while having a 4 on the floor beat running. I remember I was shocked to find that lots of that time the rhythms worked perfectly. Just that 1/16th limitation really changed my whole approach towards electronic music, I started noticing it everywhere on tracks that I hear. I think the way to emulate it on Ableton is to just use 1/16th notes most of the time, and when you need that rhythmic spice to your music, just use swing, it does wonders.
I said about how hard it was to make UK Garage before I bought the hardware machines, I remember a week ago, I was listening to some trying to analyze it, and re-create it on my Digitakt, it took me about 10 mins to make a perfect UK garage beat, and I was just stunned haha. Turned out the only factors were the 1/16th rhythm I was talking about, and swing, as well as the ability to edit individual sequencer steps to make the drums more dynamic, which elektron hardware really nails.
One note, these machine’s sounds are maybe different than what you expect when working on ableton that you might be working with really tight drum samples, and really ‘dancey’ synth sounds. For the drums, usually these are made with drum machines, compressed and processed for them to sound as tight as this. The Elektron machines you have are more raw in their output, and need some processing to sound as tight as what you’re maybe used to.
For example I’m making a live ‘EDM’ set, and I remember I ran into a problem sound-wise, the mix was really not as tight as I wished; the drums were very stale, the A4 synth was ok, but there wasn’t a lot of dynamics between drums and synth, they really felt independent of each other. When I routed the audio into Ableton and added some compressors and limiters and side-chaining, man that worked wonders. It still doesn’t sound like a really tight production (That would be possible, but you have to record each Track independently, and process/mix properly), but for a live setting, it’s quite good. So probably my advice here is to process your machines and you’d have a sound a lot closer to what you’re looking for.
I have a feeling that I rambled a lot, I hope what I said is useful haha 
Note: It took me about a year of using the A4 until I got really comfortable with making the sound I want on it.
Hey, try not to get dis-heartened. I’ve literally posted my first RYTM tune after having it for a year in the past 24 hours. It’s taken me this long to feel more confident, I was only learning 1 box and you have two to master. Give yourself a break and time to learn them. I love my Rytm Mk1 after worrying that I had f*cked up selling my TB303 to pay for it (and Pittsburgh modular SV1 with beatstep pro).
If you’ve been using Ableton for 8 years it seems pretty normal that you would be worlds better at using it than some new devices operating on another platform… There’s nothing wrong with you… 
Keep them around and learn a different paradigm, or sell them and keep doing what your good at… Feel it out, but none of this needs to necessarily make you upset, it’s just a decision to make. We are all different and like different stuff, and certain things are easier to do for different people. Just feel it out more, give them more time if you can… If you can afford to just keep them around and spend time learning them while you continue to use ableton. See what the future brings as you get to know them. Either way isn’t necessarily better than the other, it’s up to you and what you think suits your creative personality better…
Not implying that this is the case for the OP, it may be, it may not be, but the transition of going directly from zero Elektrons to two or three Elektrons is common and can be a mistake for some.
You’ll see many users here warn others who are considering this.
It takes time to find sweet spots and really learn your way around any instrument. The A4 is an instrument that is so vast and capable that it can take even longer than others. Also the menu system, sequencer idiosyncrasies, kit management scheme… these things don’t always come naturally.
The A4 isn’t a bass guitar you pick up quickly because you figure, “hey the strings are the same tunings as the first four on my guitar, and I can play guitar so this should be a breeze!”
So much of its capability is in the sequencer and in how the sequencer acts as a modulator of synth parameters.
If you feel like you aren’t clicking with either instrument, my advice is to stop using one of them, use ONLY the other, and try to make 10 full tracks with only that instrument.
All Elektrons with sequencers are capable of making some stripped down tunes entirely on one instrument.
It’s a great learning exercise and as you discover more about the instrument, each tune you write will be better than the last. After ten of these, you’ll know more than you did before and will have a more working understanding of the instrument. You’ll have developed muscle memory that won’t fade away as fast as before, so that when you work on learning another instrument, the core of what you’ve learned on the first instrument will still be there waiting for you once you return.
I can say from experience that this method has worked for me. Most recently, and after not touching the OT MKII for months, I was able to jump right back on it and without stumbling to remember much. Fortunately, the newer buttons on all the new MKIIs make things already learned somewhat more intuitive to rediscover.
Good luck!
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Yes of course I have to be more patient when learning these two complex devices at the same time.
So when I am on holidays in the future I will only take the Analog Four with me.
Then I have to become a friend with him because he is my only synth on a desert island.
And the same with the Rytm later.
Actuall I am jamming with my hardware setup Rytm+Four+Microbrute over CV only.
And yes to have the option of the Rytms Compressor makes him sound really phat.
Thats something whats missing in Overbridge Multichannel Mode.
And I have never had glitches or Driver Problems with Windows and all the f*****g PC Problems.
BUT I have to learn to play that complex, new super Device.
everyone who thinks he knows techno said to me : without the right hardware you arent able to do the RIGHT technomusic. Techno can only be made with a studio full of expensive gear.
And the software synth sounds weak and thin and so on…bla bla.
The person who told you this bullshit is just ignorant. You can do a complete album just with a laptop and a handful of plugins and nobody will recognise if it was done with hardware or software. It’s actually even a bit easier and faster to use jus a DAW. In my case I started to use Hardware because of the limitations, the fun factor and the wish to not be in front of the PC all the time. If I try to do a full track one PC i won’t finish it, because i have just to much options. I can search hours just for the right Bassdrum etc.
But if I were you I would keep the hardware and try do a complete track with it. But if it’s not fun for you and you like the PC more, then you may be better off selling your hardware.
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Forget what others say. Use what works best for you. Nothing wrong about using Not expensive stuf for Techno. I know people who did brilliant records with Just Open source Softsynths.
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Holden used the free software Buzz and some cheap instruments to create his first album.
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