Weird Midi Program Change Problems

bambrose · 2013-10-04T21:45:29.000Z

I am having some real problems here with midi Program changes, and wondered whether anyone else can help.

Basically any program changes are only happening after the pattern has completed one cycle… so my synth part (DSI Evolver) always starts off on Program 112, does a complete cycle (in some cases 64 steps) and only then switches to the program specified in the midi note setup page. All patterns after that stay on the (correct) program. I don’t know where it’s getting program 112 from ? It quickly boots it up again at the end (or maybe beginning) of each pattern and then corrects itself (so there’s this weird glitch every time it cycles around where it retriggers program 112 for a millisecond before reverting to the correct program.)

I’ve set all midi channels to channel 3 (which the Evolver is on) as I don’t trust the auto channel (atm)

I have reformatted the card and reset the unit to factory defaults.
I’ve turned off all midi relating to audio tracks (as this was causing all sort of weird problems when I was trying to record midi from an external keyboard)
I’ve created numerous patterns and numerous parts from scratch and on different tracks. I’ve rebooted the machine.

There are no parameter locks enabled in midi.
I’ve been going round in circles trying to work out what the issue is for about four hours now with no progress.

I’ve tried disabling CC direct connect.

Anyone got any ideas ?

edit : ok. I’ve now established that even without any notes on the pattern, there is an inexplicable program change happening 1 step before the end of every single pattern I create. No matter what pattern no. and no matter what length the pattern is. Is there any way to ‘delete’ a pattern so that it wipes ALL data ? Function + Play (with record enabled or without record enabled) does not delete this ‘rogue program change’ data ?

bambrose · 2013-10-05T13:23:36.000Z

I’ve still got this issue, and can;t work out what is going on.
as an example of how f**cked up this is, if I connect my evolver to the octatrak, with all patterns completely empty when I switch patterns it incrementally increases the program number as well.
so if I select pattern 1, the program suddenly switches to 97, when I select pattern 2 it switches to 98. both patterns are completely empty.
Which is then the ‘default’ program for that pattern, so that if any program changes are specified, they’ll only work sometimes as the octtrack keeps sending program changes to revert the unit back to the default program for that pattern.

Anyone got any ideas ?

OK I will email support.
Here’s my walk through :

Here’s the walkthrough from a ‘blank machine’.

format card
function + on followed by ‘empty’ (option 2)

My understanding is that this is as close to a factory reset as can be achieved ?

Double Click T1
Select Thru. enter. exit
set ‘in ab’ to a+b (where my external synth is plugged in)
press record. press Trig1. press record (i.e. assign trig to thru track)
press midi
function + playback. change midi channel to ‘4’ (channel of external synth). click encoder to confirm.
function+down arrow to select chromatic
press play. play notes. all good sound coming from main outs from external synth.
function+mixer

select midi sync
transport = recv
clock = recv
NOTE : Program change send and receive are both ‘OFF’ with auto channel as midi channel
select channels,
turn auto channel and all midi channels to off.
exit

function + scale

set to 64
stop twice
rec+play (display shows play icon but led’s indicate unit at standstill. Unit is ready for external sequencer to start and ready to record incoming note data)

send notes from external sequencer (edirol um1 connected to ableton)
disable external sync options set in step 11.
play sequence
sounds exactly correct. can alter programs (aka patches) on external synth perfectly fine.

repeat steps 12 through 16 to create three (or however many you want) patterns.

function+mixer

select midi
program change send = on
program change send = channel 4

Problem as described.
i.e. select pattern 1. press play. program on external synth changes to 1 (i.e. synth has suddenly 'switched patches to patch 1)
select pattern 2. program on external synth reads 2
select pattern 3. program on external synth reads 3

bambrose · 2013-10-05T19:05:51.000Z

Alright !!!
I have solved this.
I enabled Auto Channel. Changing it to the same midi track as my synth.
I then set Prog Change send channel to Auto Channel (where previously it had been the same midi channel as my synth)
I then ran it into midi monitor to check… no program changes being set.
I then re-enabled the program change in the part edit window and this switches programme as it should… and then stays there.

Now I will make some music

StinkyBeat · 2013-10-06T11:06:14.000Z

Here’s the problem. You do not want program change enabled in the project menu if you are sending program changes to a synth with a midi track. If you select a program change message in the midi track setup it will be set even if program change is set to off in the project menu. The program change in the project menu corresponds to the pattern selected. Pattern A-1 sends PC 1, A-2 sends 2, B-1 sends 17, ect. When the pattern is changed on the OT it will automatically change patterns on multiple Elektron machines (or other sequencers that change their pattern with a program change message). As far as channel selection, you would want to select a channel the OT is not using internally if you have any others free. If you are using an OT channel for an external synth make sure you have CCs set to internal in the project menu.

bambrose · 2013-10-07T13:20:20.000Z

""StinkyBeat"":

If you are using an OT channel for an external synth make sure you have CCs set to internal in the project menu.

Thanks for all of your advice StinkyBeat, I really appreciate you chiming in as I haven’t yet heard back from Elektron support.

This is confusing me somewhat.

I am triggering an external synth on midi channel 4. I wish to associate program changes with specific patterns and send them to the external synth.

From the Project menu :
I have unticked ‘Audio CC in’ and ‘Audio CC out’ as I have no desire to control any aspect of the Octatrack from another device.

I have also set all of the Trig channel midi channel to ‘Off’ for the same reason. I have set the Auto channel to 4. I have set the Prg Change ‘Send’ channel to auto (so that it send all program changes to my external synth via channel 4.)

I have also disabled ‘cc direct connect’ as I would rather manually map CC numbers than set up a loop and the added complication this brings.

Following on from your earlier advice. I don’t think that disabling the program change ‘send’ (from auto) is required ? If I do this midi control of the external synth will just be completely disabled won’t it ?

rhizome · 2013-10-07T15:48:15.000Z

not in front of the machine, but I think stinky has it right. it’s explained very poorly in the manual. basically, you use the setting in the project menu to automatically send a PC that is hard linked to a bank/pattern number.

AFAIK, this is mainly used to sync pattern changes between elektron machines (switch pattern on OT, and your A4/MD/MM switches to the corresponding pattern), and does not affect the MIDI track PCs. it sounds like the pattern level PC overrides the MIDI track PC, causing the MIDI track PC to only kick in after it loops back to the beginning of the pattern.

for your purposes, you can just turn off the project menu’s send PC setting, and it should work correctly.

bambrose · 2013-10-07T16:09:35.000Z

""rhizome"":

not in front of the machine, but I think stinky has it right. it’s explained very poorly in the manual. basically, you use the setting in the project menu to automatically send a PC that is hard linked to a bank/pattern number.

AFAIK, this is mainly used to sync pattern changes between elektron machines (switch pattern on OT, and your A4/MD/MM switches to the corresponding pattern), and does not affect the MIDI track PCs. it sounds like the pattern level PC overrides the MIDI track PC, causing the MIDI track PC to only kick in after it loops back to the beginning of the pattern.

for your purposes, you can just turn off the project menu’s send PC setting, and it should work correctly.

Thanks Rhizome, I’m also not in front of mine at present, but will try this out when I get home.

bambrose · 2013-10-08T08:21:46.000Z

Yes, thanks to both Rhizome and Stinky Beat.
The manual is certainly less than clear on this.

Suffice to say the Project level Program change option can be left to ‘off’ and the Track specific program changes still work with external devices.

Similarly having the project level program change option ticked, and set to auto (and auto set to the correct channel for an external synth) also works, as long as you set the Project wide trig channels to ‘off’.

Topic closed !!

Structive · 2013-12-11T23:11:00.000Z

hey maybe not quite yet!
I ended up here as I was having the same issue. StinkyBeat and rhizome def helped clear the initial problem but now I am having another. . . which is that I can’t for the life of me figure out how to make a program change on the MIDI track. Yea I know. . . . I must be missing something.

basically I want to be able to switch patches on my synth when I change a pattern. When I am in ‘MIDI note setup’ in my next pattern I can’t automate the trig to change programs.

What am I missing? please and thankyou

bambrose · 2013-12-16T15:42:20.000Z

""Structive"":

hey maybe not quite yet!
I ended up here as I was having the same issue. StinkyBeat and rhizome def helped clear the initial problem but now I am having another. . . which is that I can’t for the life of me figure out how to make a program change on the MIDI track. Yea I know. . . . I must be missing something.

basically I want to be able to switch patches on my synth when I change a pattern. When I am in ‘MIDI note setup’ in my next pattern I can’t automate the trig to change programs.

What am I missing? please and thankyou

Can’t be done. The only way is to use parts instead. It’s a much asked for feature request…

Structive · 2013-12-16T23:46:48.000Z

ok thanks. I was trying to avoid that but . … parts it is for now I suppose.

thanks man

samcamelia · 2016-09-20T20:01:22.527Z

Hey buddies,
Do you know if Elektron has planned to implement this ?

PeterHanes · 2016-09-20T23:50:13.209Z

I think it is very unlikely that Elektron will make this change in functionality to the OT.

stutech · 2016-09-21T16:12:12.831Z

The best workaround is to get a bomebox or an equivalent MIDI translator box, and to convert some other MIDI data into pgm changes. Otherwise, you need to use the 4 parts per bank, and use diff banks if you need more than 4. Or then you need to use the OT’s internal “pgm chng on pattern change” feature, which originally caused your headaches, but then you will be forced to use patch 1 for pattn 1 etc (ie. alot of copying of patches on your evolver)

Also, regarding the evolver changing its pgm at the end of a pattern, this is a default behaviour on the evolver for patches that have a sequence. You can disable this behaviour from evolver’s settings IIRC

samcamelia · 2016-09-21T16:18:29.867Z

Thank for the solution - I think I’m gonna dig in the use parts to fit to the OT spirit…

jacman · 2021-01-04T17:58:06.067Z

Hey bambrose !

I ran into a very similar problem recently trying to have Patches of my external Synth (their Program Value) stored on a Octatrack MIDI Channel , and what I had to do make it work was:
_ setting the AUTO CHAN to the Channel of my Synth
_Prog Change enalbled to Auto Channel
_and : AUDIO CCs set to EXT ! (as well as AUDIO NOTE set to EXT)

sezare56 · 2021-01-04T18:22:03.199Z

jacman:

_ setting the AUTO CHAN to the Channel of my Synth

What is its channel? 1?

jacman:

_Prog Change enalbled to Auto Channel

You mean set Prog Change send, with AUTO setting in MIDI > SYNC page ?
This AUTO setting doesn’t correspond to AUTO CHANNEL but to the lowest channel used by audio tracks, default being 1.

For synth patches, midi tracks are more suitable.

jacman · 2021-01-04T18:47:27.263Z

_ the Channel of m Synth is set to 10. But it could be any channel…
_ yes, Prog Chang Send checked, and Channel to AUTO in MIDI > SYNC
… so you’re saying the Prog Change is being send by default to channel 1 ? Thats weird that it works then ??

tnussb · 2021-01-04T18:56:22.959Z

jacman:

Prog Chang Send checked

If you want to use only program change settings stored on a MIDI track, Prog Change Send needs to be unchecked (disabled).

Otherwise this will send an additional prog change message related to the bank and pattern number you are switching to on the Octatrack.

This automatic prog change is meant for syncing, for example, 2 Elektron devices so they step through the same patterns.

sezare56 · 2021-01-04T19:17:28.570Z

Defaulf AUTO setting is 1 because the lowest audio track is 1 (MIDI > CHANNELS > audio tracks are set to 1-8 by default.

Did you change these settings, appart from AUTO CHANNEL? Is it the only setting with channel 10?

jacman:

Thats weird that it works then ??

Unless Elektron changed MIDI SYNC AUTO behavior, yes.