Too tied to DAW plugins for my sound

Octagonist · 2022-06-20T17:37:53.397Z

Purusha:

No tricks. No goalposts being moved. Why would you even think like that?

E.g. Fabfilter dynamics, EQ and mastering plugins. Reverbs, delays etc.

So, mixing using DAW hosted plugins, from various potential sound-sources.

You started out asking about minimising your live rig whilst continuing to band-limited side-chain your bass with your kick. Now you’re talking about EQs, filters, time fx.

This is what I meant by goalpost moving.

bodymechanics · 2022-06-20T17:39:24.571Z

They’ll still be plenty available in 2023

RabidMusic · 2022-06-20T17:49:33.933Z

Started using computer on stage in the 1980’s with a DOS computer running Jim Miller’s Personal Composer to drive a Yamaha drum machine and a group of TX-7’s. Not because I wanted a computer on stage, but because I couldn’t find the musicians to play the synth based dance music we were doing in our small rural town. It worked, and we worked, finding plenty of jobs with our sound.

Now it is so much easier. The question is not should I use a computer. The real question is do I know how to perform with a computer on stage and not bore the audience. I hate watching acts that hit play and do nothing but adjust the mixer during a song. Consider the computer the back line. Supporting musicians there to make you sound better. Stay involved with the music and look like you are in control.

thermionic · 2022-06-20T17:55:36.011Z

Can you embrace the “rawness” and see it as a different signature sound of yours?

Accept the flaws and wrap them up into the feeling over a direct translation or even interpretation of your favorite studio tricks and tracks.

Distance yourself and reimagine and perhaps you can be not just accepting but excited!

thermionic · 2022-06-20T18:00:52.846Z

RabidMusic:

The question is not should I use a computer. The real question is do I know how to perform with a computer on stage and not bore the audience.

It never has to be all or nothing!

Just played a theater/rock show with a friend who uses a few necessary backing tracks while he built up rhythmic/melodic guitar layers, then played live once the “band” bed was set and locked.

m0ld · 2022-06-20T18:02:08.834Z

Ah, gotcha. I guess I got a bit confused reading through the thread

Your idea of routing the mixer into the DAW is exactly what I was thinking. Idk how well it all works, and latency could be a problem (as I believe others noted below) but it’s worth testing out since you already have a mixer (presumably with usb)!

Mistercharlie · 2022-06-20T18:06:51.390Z

Purusha:

Actually, I’ve been using this forum for years.

Exactly! We’re all as bad each other. I’m sorry my post came across as mean. It was meant to be lighthearted.

reeloy · 2022-06-20T18:10:13.708Z

…let’s agree at least on one thing…if ur set is based on elektron gear, don’t even start to think about using ob in a live stage situation…

Purusha · 2022-06-20T18:12:03.703Z

Last response to you. I really don’t know why you’ve decided to be hostile.

You say moving goalposts. I’d say clarification and expanding my thoughts.

From my opening post:

“I especially miss side-chaining compression or frequency duckers like SmoothOperator.”

^ especially, not exclusively. As-in - for example.

At the end of my opening post:

“I guess one obvious solution, would be to use a laptop purely for the plug-ins and as a mixing device, but that would feel live overkill.”

That covers pretty-much what I’ve been saying all along. If you don’t understand what I’m saying, no problem. Others do.

captain8 · 2022-06-20T18:18:12.508Z

have you thought about using a roland mx-1 mixer, not enough inputs, you can run one into another via usb, also has pseudo side ducking

Purusha · 2022-06-20T18:26:33.960Z

I hadn’t, but that’s an interesting thought. I’d discounted the mx-1 some time ago, due to not considering it as having enough analogue A/D at the time. …but I might take another look.

Cheers!

bodymechanics · 2022-06-20T18:26:57.535Z

I REALLY wish more companies would attempt some kind of performance mixer, especially Elektron

Purusha · 2022-06-20T18:30:07.316Z

bodymechanics:

I REALLY wish more companies would attempt some kind of performance mixer, especially Elektron

I think it was my main ask of Elektron on the Wishlist / what should we do next.

A&H’s digital desks probably come closest, but they’re missing those useful bits like - side chain compression.

I’d also consider the Pioneer mixers, connected to a laptop for the effects. That might at least give me some performance flexibility…?

chrisroland · 2022-06-20T18:30:22.971Z

i admit i’ve been out of the production side of house/techno for years (and even when i was trying to make tracks, never really got into the engineering side of it) but weren’t pretty much all pre-DAW tracks written and produced without sidechain compression? i hadn’t even heard the term until a few months ago and never found any of the old school mixes to be muddy on the low end – the great ones are clear as a bell with bass and kicks.

Purusha · 2022-06-20T18:32:46.816Z

chrisroland:

admit i’ve been out of the production side of house/techno for years (and even when i was trying to make tracks, never really got into the engineering side of it) but weren’t pretty much all pre-DAW tracks written and produced without sidechain compression? i hadn’t even heard the term until a few months ago and never found any of the old school mixes to be muddy on the low end – the great ones are clear as a bell with bass and kicks.

Possibly depends a bit on the genre. With dense frequency spreads per part, side-chain can really make a difference. I could dig out loads of psy/prog from the 90s, which might have been innovative at the time, but production-wise, it really could have used some of the more modern techniques.

Even tracks from my favourite producers at the time had this problem. I know some of them, through my promotion and DJing work, and the ones I’ve talked to on the subject, do agree with me on that.

chrisroland · 2022-06-20T18:35:54.291Z

for sure there were TONS of janky ass productions back in the day – so much of the raw Chicago acid tracks sound like shiiiit (production wise). but they do the job on the floor and i’d give a million generic Beatport tracks DAWed within an inch of their life for some random beat up Trax 12"

Purusha · 2022-06-20T18:39:25.897Z

If you bear in mind that most of us back then, were using analogue desks, we had to produce tracks where parts avoided each other. in the frequency spectrum. Any call-and-response type thing, would involve making frequency space for each channel, but the call-and-response trick meant one sound/patch didn’t clash as badly with the other if it was in the same frequency range.

On the analogue desks, you were lucky if you had a sweepable mid and even more lucky if you could cut below 75Hz.

It was only when I moved onto a Yamaha 01v, like a lot of others I knew at the time, when things started to get clarity.

Some producers got access to studios, where they could use more complex compression routing etc.

Like I say though - it depends on your genre.

chrisroland · 2022-06-20T18:46:00.723Z

i always felt that from the opposite end of writing tracks (also partly as a limitation by only have a couple synths and a 2mb Emax II) and even today with slightly more sound options – solid bass at the low end, pianos and some analog synthy bits in the mid-range, strings or more FM/bell synths at the high end. it’s not a bad template to build a track from – keep it simple!

bodymechanics · 2022-06-20T18:50:55.555Z

I try to design my tracks without any need for major compression of heavy EQing.
If I can get it as close as possible, I’ve succeed.
Then adding those things is slightly enough spice to make it really shine.
This way I’m not dependent on it, especially live.
Each PA and Room are so different

Purusha · 2022-06-20T19:01:24.657Z

DAW EQ’d, compressed and then bounced loops, clips and one-shots is another way of working. Loading those onto Akai Force and using its ducker and other effects is one approach.

There’s a big problem with the Force though, for my purposes. its time-stretching on loops has artefacts, otherwise it’d probably cover most of my needs. From my DJing experience, if possible, I’d really want to be able to adjust tempo on-the-fly.

However, if I were to use it purely for its effects as a mixing device, that might get me a long way to what I’m after. The effects wouldn’t suffer from time-stretching artefacts. Hmmm… I might potentially have something there!