Tonverk vs Torso S4

Elektron Gear Tonverk
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There is a thread that compares Tonverk to other samplers, but from bevore the update. After it got Grainer I think it should specifically to Granular samplers like the S4. Also both have pretty wide range of tools for sound shaping.
I got the S4 and i am underwhelmbt by its quality. Elektron stuff is a different kind in this regard.

S4 seems to lock values to specific values that keep tonal and rhythmic sync unless you don‘t want that.
I don‘t know how syncable and controlable the grainer engine is.
Is there sny way on tonverk to mimic the resonant filter of the s4? It gives such a good haptic sound.

Compare.

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I have both, and the fundamental difference is that for now at least, the S4 grains the incoming signal in real time, whereas the Grainer on the Tonverk needs a sample.

I really like both, I use the S4 as a 4-track tape recorder, plus to mangle the incoming signal, from the Tonverk and other sources.

I don’t think they can really be compared, but in any case the two are very complementary in my opinion.

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Thats interesting that you feel they can‘t be compared apart from live mangeling.

Do you feel the soundshaping passibillities are vastly different to one another?

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For me they are quite different. Still new on the TV, but the workflow, fx and modulation possibilities are very different on each device… so the output can differ a lot with the same sample, for ex.

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This is critical (as with all gear comparisons).

Often a list of specs only tells half the story - it’s what the device affords that’s as important.

I see the S4 as being created primarily for soundscaping and mangling - experimental and organic exploration - sometimes of a live source.

The TV will excel at sequenced rhythmic creations and melodic composition, primarily with samples that have been captured/multisampled in advance.

They may both use similar (even the same) tools to achieve this, but I don’t think you’re likely to end at the same result.

So whether the TV can resonate the same as the S4 is almost a moot point to some degree.

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S4 is about modulation, FX are just drive, reverb, delay (resonant filter if you’re into it, but everything sounds the same to my ear), whereas the Tonverk has a ton of different FX and more to come. Not the same workflow, but both are lovely and very complementary.

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yes, and you have a whole sequencer in TV and no sequencer at all on S-4

Edit: ah, i see you added the word ‘sequenced’… so same idea, yes…

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Yea this is the key thing for me.

TV is at its heart an Elektron box - which is ALL ABOUT the sequencer - everything else is there to be used by it - consumed by it.

S4 feels almost intentionally antithetical to that - it’s probably more comparable to an effects pedal than a groovebox.

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true

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i have them both and i can safely say there’s almost no overlap.

(as you probably know because you have it, but highlighting for other readers) the granular engine on S-4 is way more complex, it’s realtime, and pitch modulation + quantization + 4 modulators with an insane amount of shaping possibilities (yes, shaping the modulator wave itself) makes it lightyears ahead compared what TV offers. (and I’m just talking about the Mosaic device, not evne taking Rings into account)

on the other hand, the POLY machine of S-4 is quite basic with a mediocre filter (an obviously you need an external sequencer to be able to sequence it)

granulation-wise, there’s fundamental differences between realtime granular fx (which is based on a constantly refilled buffer, which S-4 has) and buffered granular fx (where buffer is prefilled, like TV) and they produce very different results.

i’ll be brutally honest, i’m slightly disappointed with the grainer machine. and i didn’t even have high expectations (it wouldn’t be a GR-MEGA ofc), but i expected at least to be able to control the pitch of grains (even if it was a simple 1 octave up/down shift) but it’s not there (hopefully they add it)

that being said, TV is a keeper because of all the other things it can do, not what grainer can (or rather can’t) do.

so for anyone that got hyped by the grainer machine ALONE in an oddly specific scenario where you consider selling S-4 to get a TV with the money, i’d vote against it. using both would be a very very nice combo though. (and this is coming from someone who almost always keeps a project “constrained to a single box” despite owning lots of gear, mainly because of laziness and lack of proper studio space, and also creativity thriving in constraints etc etc but even i will hook them up together and use S-4 as a send fx + field recording player that can mangle sound to the hell and back)

besides granulation, S-4 has one of the nicest saturators i’ve seen/heard in any gear i own (and i bought and sold all generations of analog heat ahah). even the dirtshaper in TV feels very boxy and lacking definition despite the rectification algo it has.

so all in all, S-4 feels more like it belongs to a realm of modular (crazy modulation possibilities, to the extent of “sequencing” through modulation), or maybe even a norns-like world, where it’s very good at doing something probably only it can do, and it’s more like a “tool” in your toolbelt. (master of one)

and TV is a global citizen, a proper groovebox that can do almost everything (jack of all trades, master of none. well maybe except sequencing, elektron sequencer is the king of sequencers :sweat_smile: ) so it’s very welcome to have “some” granular action there, but it shouldn’t be a deciding factor on that particular subject alone.

if it matters, i travel quite frequently and i can only get only 1-2 pieces of “relatively portable” music gear with me. since i acquired it, S-4 permanently occupies one of those slots. but i can safely say TV will probably be the second device i’ll bring along most of the time (instead of a rotation between M8, Deluge, DTII, DNII, Push3SA etc)

i know this sounded like i praise S-4 a lot, but believe me i’m being objective. there’s a lot of things i hate in S-4 and lots of decisions from devs that i don’t agree with, but still even at its current state, it fills a very particular gap i have in my (g)ear, and it’s currently irreplaceable for me, at least for now.

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Pairing S-4 and Blackbox filled the sampling gap in my setup and somehow puts out any GAS of Tonverk so far

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This combo is a killer. Blackbox for its size and number of inputs is a gem for vacuuming little bits and pieces of sounds and loops in my studio as well.

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Thanx for elaborating. I wasn‘t aware that the granular engine on s4 is so much ahead.

The saturation is indeed nice, thought tonverk as many option in this regard.

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Just to add another perspective, I sold S4 just before Tonverk came out because I was tired of it’s bugginess and felt like it was too niche for me to keep my money and desk space tied up in it. I saw what Tonverk had to offer and bought it, even though S4 soured me a bit on hardware. I find it way more useful and engaging and productive. There’s no denying S4 is deep, and while different in many ways I feel Tonverk gets me 80% of the way there in terms of mangling and discovering and yes “sculpting” new sounds from sampled material, but offers myriad sound design, composition, and arrangement opportunities that of course S4 lacks. For me at least S4 lacked any sense of “playability” and I always found myself saying “ok now what”. I tried sequencing S4 with T1, op-xy, and ableton but never really got anywhere satisfying, whereas TV’s sequencer just seems to work for me. I hesitate to invoke notions of “productivity” or similar tropes (this isn’t my work after all, it’s play!) but it’s undeniable for me that I can just sit down and jam out some ideas quickly and get to interesting places with TV, and that’s worth a great deal to me. S4 didn’t get me there.

Also, for me S4 had a tendency to start to sound same-y on everything you apply it to – maybe that’s my own shortcoming but many folks point this out. TV has its own problems as well but my experience has been way smoother, less buggy, and I’m more productive/engaged in it as an instrument. I’ve used Tonverk almost daily since I got it in September whereas S4 (purchased August '24) sat idle for months at a time after the initial novelty wore off. YMMV and all that, it obviously works for some people, but it clearly was not for me. I frankly have more faith in TV (and Elektron) in terms long term viability as an instrument.

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I returned my Bento the day TonVerk got the granular update. Bento also too buggy for me atm.

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Is someone using S-4 together with TV and want to share your experience?

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I do. What you want to know?

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You can do this - the range is two octaves up or down.

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The workflow, routing and what you like about it

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Routing for now nothing special. Each sampler has his own mixer input and they are not connected between. Maybe in future will input the S4 on the TV for some master fx, but actually not needed. I have some projects on the Torso, most ambiance, field rec, soundscapes, bizarre things and i’m incorporating TV to give them some more sens, some direction, adding sometimes drums, or bass, or sometimes a melody, speech or chords. Also adding some sparkling with the ‘granier’ machine. My aim is to go live, so I’m trying to have some kind of template, where , on Tonverk, 3 first tracks are for percussive elements(subtracks divided low/meds/highs), the 4th is always ‘granier’, 5th always bass, next one is for something played live(multisample usually) and the others chords/pads/what else, or not yet used…That way will be easy to remember in concert situation. Each ‘song’ is one pattern, and need to see how transitions will be done. I have a Soma Cosmos that I think will be used for that. It is kind of an ambient/dub/dark no genre set. Regarding midi, S4 is providing sync/play/stop via 5pin, all ok, but maybe will change later, will see in live situation what is best. I like the flexibility and the quality of sound of both boxes. Hope that helps.
Here an example, sorry for the rough/fast recording/mix( just done to show you something, not finished yet…)

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