The problem with Elektronaut Youtubers

m0ld · 2024-02-22T20:33:49.835Z

Oh boy, am I about to witness a ban-evasion-ban in realtime? Three thoughts immediately spring to mind:

1: it’s not my problem and should probably be handled privately if possible.
2: show proof of bullying or nobody has any reason to believe this (yes, this contradicts Thought 1).
3: Is the internet extra grumpy? This is like the third time I’ve seen some kind of intense interpersonal drama today. Two of those instances involve Discord, which is unsurprising.

m0ld · 2024-02-22T21:21:07.257Z

Two things:

First, I appreciate the context, assuming it’s all accurate. This isn’t exactly proof. I’m not int he discord, don’t pay for the patreon, etc. However, I’m genuinely unsure if it’s wise to air all this publicly, on this forum, particularly without explicit, hard evidence. This all feels like it’s a bit too much hedging toward some kind of character assassination/ cross-platform bickering/ off-topic or some other sort of grey area or forum rule-break. Again, not my beef or necessarily my business. I have no issue with you, or them, as I wasn’t there. However…

Second: If you genuinely can’t see how a tired, played out, sexist joke may not be welcome in an inclusive community, you may want to take a step back and think about if it’s even a community you should/could/want to engage with anyway. I fully see the point the moderator made, I agree with it, and in their position I would likely respond similarly. This doesn’t exactly paint you in a good light either.

At the risk of straying way too far off-topic, I also need to mention this specifically:

jericho:

The compassion and empathy that @Kinga and their community receive from, in their words, “cishet males” is being eroded away by this type of behavior. It’s a bad look for their community. It’s a blatant double standard: Don’t mention having a wife because that triggers “me”, but I’m going to force my gender identity in YOUR face….

They are not reponding to the mere mention of a wife in a joke, but to the sexism implied (if not outright perpetuated) by jokes of the “well I need to hide [hobby] from The Wife” and other “Wife Bad, heh heh heh” types of jokes. It’s played out, it alienates women, it’s way too common in nerdy communities and it’s just not funny or even remotely clever. If the only thing it takes to “erode the compassion and empathy from cishet males” is that trans people have a strong distaste for jokes whose only punchline is outdated stereotypes, gender roles, and attitudes towards women, then I’d question whether that “empathy and compassion” existed toward us in the first place.

mpiecora · 2024-02-22T21:25:33.981Z

You totally nailed it. Well said. <3

schoolbabyboy · 2024-02-22T21:47:43.825Z

you gotta log off dude, its the only solution to your dilemma

Zijnvolt · 2024-02-22T21:48:20.856Z

All communities have their own values and threshold of what is ok and what is not. This one simply didn’t work out so time to move on as there are no winners here.

Zijnvolt · 2024-02-22T21:55:54.726Z

Great, then it’s all settled. Hope you feel better after airing your grief and can focus on some positive things that bring joy rather than annoyance.

MichaalHell · 2024-02-22T22:09:12.333Z

Hey Hey Hey now. You’re not subscribed to my channel….

JES · 2024-02-23T01:44:50.619Z

m0ld:

They are not reponding to the mere mention of a wife in a joke, but to the sexism implied (if not outright perpetuated) by jokes of the “well I need to hide [hobby] from The Wife” and other “Wife Bad, heh heh heh” types of jokes. It’s played out, it alienates women, it’s way too common in nerdy communities and it’s just not funny or even remotely clever. If the only thing it takes to “erode the compassion and empathy from cishet males” is that trans people have a strong distaste for jokes whose only punchline is outdated stereotypes, gender roles, and attitudes towards women, then I’d question whether that “empathy and compassion” existed toward us in the first place.

I missed the drama but just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I can’t stand the “my wife” jokes either. They were never funny.

circuitghost · 2024-02-23T05:41:07.076Z

Suspect_Frequency:

I hear they all use DAW’s anyway.

Hey.

Francis · 2024-02-23T08:24:11.644Z

The courage to say what at least six of us think!

Zijnvolt · 2024-02-23T10:02:18.501Z

They are definitely dated for me too, but at the same time in some cultures and communities still very normal.

I think it’s important to be compassionate and explain why you feel something isn’t funny without accusing someone of bad intent. Most of the times people don’t have bad intent when making a shitty joke, it’s simply a lack of understanding as to how it might offend someone due to their own upbringing/culture/community, etc.

The fact that people are from different cultures and communities is often forgotten when talking online to strangers. It’s important to remember that the person on the other side might be from a completely different country with different social norms.

LyingDalai · 2024-02-23T10:30:28.455Z

You are very right, and I salute your appeasing discourse
And I may add, it’s a perfectly understandable thing to not share the values the moderators try to enforce in a community.

But when you repeatedly fight them, it’s very normal to be led to the exit door.
The line about “I’m the client” says much about the state of mind. As a moderator I’ve spoken to people angry that I “had an agenda”/didn’t respect their liberty of speech (smells like fumes of far-right propaganda to me), and/or that they were a customer and kind of had every right to express themselves as they saw fit. It’s pretty hard to reason such people, most of the time my words were unheard, even when trying to explain my motivations with very peaceful words.
If the person was too combative, they were finally kicked out.

There is much room for intolerance on the internet ( Elon).
It can seem unfair, we are humans, but at some point, as a moderator you have to make choices for the sake of the place.

Needless to say, @fractilian is gone for good.

Zijnvolt · 2024-02-23T10:41:52.436Z

LyingDalai:

But when you repeatedly fight them, it’s very normal to be led to the exit door.

Absolutely, there’s only so much one can do. Some people just have an inherent “world is against me” mindset and that’s a problem only they can solve. Definitely not the job of a mod.

lopodyr · 2024-02-23T10:48:51.234Z

I don’t think the joke is the issue here. It’s the poster’s response to being told they crossed a line. They could have said « ah, sorry, I was not aware it was insensitive » and moved on with their life. They could have made their jokes somewhere else, to people who find it funny, or at least not hurtful. But if your jokes hurt people, you are doing something wrong. Telling them to the wrong audience for instance. At any rate, one person’s right to make jokes is not as critical as a community’s right to feel safe.

Snark may make you look cool to other cynical people, but it does not make you a more helpful member of a community

Zijnvolt · 2024-02-23T11:14:47.927Z

Yeah I hear you, my point was more a generalised one to improve discourse overall.

Honestly I’m not someone that feels unsafe online when someone makes jokes that are not in my personal taste, so I don’t think it’s worth anyones time if I go into that. I don’t really get hurt by jokes. Only by intent. I’ll only ever feel unsafe if I get a personal threat. That’s my limit.

Me saying this does not mean I don’t emphasise with people that do get hurt by jokes, I simply don’t get hurt myself and therefore my opinion is not really adding something to that topic.

lopodyr · 2024-02-23T11:39:02.172Z

Again, I don’t think it’s about jokes. It’s not a matter of taste, or about the joke being funny. It’s not really about getting hurt about a joke that makes you feel bad personally. Some people feel hurt because the jokes remind them of a broad reality that is unsafe for them.

Someone calling me ugly would never get to me. Someone joking about how it makes sense that my existence should be illegal may not hurt me, but it will eventually make me leave a community if I feel like it’s a generalized sentiment. Emphasis on feel.

Some people wish (and need) to have a safe place to exist in, and some people’s jokes destroy that space. Something that should be insignificant quietly enforces something very significant.

Some communities also explicitly wish to be supportive. Which means any joke at the expanse of anyone will be deemed insensitive. That’s not what people are there for. At least, not most of them. It may not be worth judging someone over, but enough to call for a flag to be raised.

In other words, it belongs to a community to choose what kind of space it builds. Not all views are compatible. Tolerance means a « zero tolerance policy » on intolerant speech. That’s the paradox we all have to deal with.

So, it doesn’t matter whether humor should hurt you or not. It’s about making room for what connects the community, even if that means to remove what detracts from it.

PS: I also wish to surface more arguments around this topic. I’m not trying to antagonize, or « tell you off » @Zijnvolt. I’m sorry if my tone reads like that :S

Zijnvolt · 2024-02-23T11:43:07.453Z

No worries, I don’t feel antagonised at all! Also good to read your insights, thanks!

JES · 2024-02-23T11:49:32.328Z

lopodyr:

In other words, it belongs to a community to choose what kind of space it builds. Not all views are compatible. Tolerance means a « zero tolerance policy » on intolerant speech. That’s the paradox we all have to deal with.

I don’t know what you mean by zero tolerance but I’ve seen people here and elsewhere say insensitive things, someone explains why what they said was hurtful, then they apologize and everyone moves on. That’s how it’s supposed to work IMO.

“Zero tolerance” can me things like “eviction on first offence” which is not my sense of how this place is run.

Now if we really want to startt a fight: is ambient music better if it’s got a beat under it?

lopodyr · 2024-02-23T11:52:59.451Z

I agree with you! To me, “zero tolerance” means “it should not be let to happen without notification”. It does not mean “maximum penality on frame 1”

Someone should say something. It can be something polite, or even something kind. But if something is frowned upon, the person should know.
The other option is “nobody says anything until it goes too far and someone gets brutally cut off after having hurt others repeatedly”. I don’t think it’s optimal.

At any rate, I agree, people should have an opportunity to learn which limits not to cross in any environment, not be banned because of a lack of knowledge.

edit: Forgot a “not”. Some words matter more than others sometimes

shigginpit · 2024-02-23T12:19:53.097Z

In any system the concept of utopia is difficult to define, even more difficult to enforce.

Difficult to define because it assumes that all will feel the same feelings and value the same values when in many systems “most” is enough to satisfy the conditions for a majority, so to say that 51% is usually sufficient to constitute most.

Difficult to enforce because it presumes that the 49% who do not fall under the blanket of “most” will simply accept the hand that they’ve been dealt through the reasoning that “more people feel a different way than you do, therefore you are wrong”. This does not always make sense no matter what the issue up for discussion may be.

This is why I agree with those who champion tolerance as the best policy, it makes the most sense and it allows people who may not be of like mind but are of similar belief to interact with the lowest possible friction.

I also understand personal sensitivities, I’ve historically been a sensitive person and at times this has not worked in my favor. I’ve had to learn that in some instances, oversensitivity is the antonym of tolerance.

Not directed at any particular comment or discussion, just adding my thoughts.