The groovebox market

Well the 909 has the same XV based synth engine as the Fantom, with numerous envelopes and LFOs and a huge range of adjustable parameters, way more than most VA or analogue synths.

The sequencer can real time record controller movements but no step modulation (parameter locks) however it does allow tempo and mute changes to be recorded plus patterns can be up to 999 bars long.

I suppose it just depends on how you choose to measure complexity

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Music%20Edge

For Example : Roland MC-909 ; Korg Zero 8 ; Yamaha RS-7000 ;
Kurzweil K2000RS ; 2 X MOTU Midi Timepiece AV USB ;
Korg Electribe EMX 1 ; Korg Kaossilator Pro ; Korg Kaosspad 3 ;
Elektron Machinedrum UW ; Elektron Monomachine ; Korg Microkontrol

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The 909 is one of the higher end grooveboxes and one of the exceptions to the slew of mediocre groovebox that were available. Hence why I stated “most were mediocre a few were great”. No one will deny that the 909 is a great example of what a groovebox can be. Lots of others fall far short of the 909 capabilities.

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@tallrobphilp the 90s were a hilarious time to live through. In the mid 90s we bought up a bunch of old analog crap that people were selling to fund workstations, Korg M1 or Wavestation, etc. 3 or 4 years later techno began to go mainstream and I had to laugh at the irony of seeing people pay more for simulators of the very instruments that were a cheap afterthought a few years prior.

The industry has mostly gone down market unless you consider eurorack which is essentially modular via an installment plan. Perhaps that speaks a bit to the health of the global economy and/or attitudes towards delayed gratification? I see people online complain about cost like $€£1000 represents a major barrier, when 13 years ago I spent 3 times that on a sampler. 20 years ago one could have spent close to double or even triple that on a fully kitted out sampler. The market as changed, no doubt.

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Tangent, but anybody remember ‘At Home With the Groovebox’?

MC-505 was my first piece of gear in 2000, before even owning my own computer.

My favorite piece to use on its own now is Digitone. While I’m not exclusively using it as a groovebox, most patterns I’ve made so far can stand on their own and usually have 1 track for drums.

OP-1 is also great but I no longer own one. I loved using it alone, always made very different stuff with it.

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I remember this one: https://www.discogs.com/fr/Various-Groovebox-Experience/release/81462

Bad music IMO, even at the time.

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Maybe the market is far less niche, now. Instead of a small bunch of intense hobbyists/enthusiasts, you have a whole bunch of folks who play with this stuff in their free time and don’t see spending $1000 on a groovebox all that worth it.

Following out of professional curiosity.

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I always wanted one of them - how is it?

Hi @konputa. I remember the 90s well although I was only born in 1980 so I was young! I understand about the relative value of this stuff and how the trends change etc.

To be clear - I’m not looking for a silver bullet solution or to become a megastar producer overnight whilst spending as little money as possible! I’m merely a hobbyist and I’m trying to work out what is going to give me the most bang for my buck in terms of enjoyment without overspending. I have no desire to have a music career or even impress anyone with my output really, I just want to enjoy the hobby again. I’ve gone right off using the computer to make music so just trying to get a bit of music mojo back without going overboard on the equipment or spending.

I’m certainly not complaining about the cost of things, but rather just trying to choose carefully so I get something I’ll use and enjoy.

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I think the Roland MC-505 and Korg EMX-1 are the best ‘grooveboxes’
I’ve used with Korg EMX-1 on their heels…
At gunpoint though, OP-1

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This Mixer is OK , but only after changing the Capacitors in the Power Supply Unit …

For me, the first couple groove boxes I used, borrowed from friends, were the Quasimidi 309 “Rave-o-lution!” and Yamaha RM1X. I loved the sounds of what my friends were doing with them.

Both were cost prohibitive for me at the time. Which is funny considering I was spending about $200/mo on import vinyl. I opted for a DR-770 initially, and it was a fun beat box but couldn’t do much else. I was bummed that I couldn’t get it to sound anywhere near as cool as what my friend was doing with a simple Roland R8.

Once I was ready to drop some cash on a “groove box”, I went all out and opted for an MPC2000XL Studio Plus. 8 outs into my mixer and small fx rack, plus a nice big chunky 100MB SCSI ZIP Drive for my samples. It served me well for many years. I was able to do whole tracks on it. And I feel that is what the “groovebox” paradigm promises.

I sampled everything. If I saw a friend had a dusty old synth that they hadn’t touched for a year, I’d borrow it for a month and sample the most interesting sounds I could make with it. Or I’d just come over with my MPC for a jam session and leave with a few fresh samples to use at my studio, later that evening, like a techno banger from 909+JP8000 samples.

I eventually sold it to go with a laptop instead, somewhat of a regret of mine. I’ll sometimes eye used MPC2000XL for nostalgic purposes. Doing live shows with the MPC + Mixer rack were fine for gigs I had to drive to, but for international travel, the latest fast (Pentium3!) were getting there and much more portable. So it was mostly a live performance decision to move toward the laptop.

Later on, I was able to mimic the studio workflow/capabilities I had with the MPC+Mixer+FX rack setup I used to have, with Live v4.0 and the MPD-32. The DAW workflow plus cumulative experience in studio and live sound was giving me a higher fidelity production quality in my DAW only tracks, and it opened me up for more collaborations with other artists.

And then eventually that Live+MPD32 setup turned into an Analog Rytm which has proven to be my favorite Elektron for all-in-one compositions. And I could still incorporate it with my DAW.


So there is a definite workflow lineage I had been chasing since my initial success with the MPC. And in that chase I’ve come to realize a few things:

  1. For getting the “all in one” vibe out of a box, sample playback is key. You can sample anything. It opens up the world of sounds. Resampling, if available, will allow you to go even further, but you can still work without it.

  2. It’s all about FX. Rytm/MD/OT all have solid enough FX to get an entire track done without accompaniment. And unlike a single analog drum machine (909/Drumatix/Tanzbar), the added FX and especially compression goes a long way.

  3. Limitations are fine. It’s more productive to focus on what they force you to do than what they disallow you from doing.

  4. Keeping it all on one sequencer still preserves the “all-in-one” mentality during creation. So adding a Nord Drum or Roland TM-2 .wav drum module, sequenced by A4’s 4 CV outs, added drums and even sample playback to a synth with a serious track count limitation for “complete tracks”. A4+TM-2 allowed me to do solid tracks without anything else. It removed some limitations, but not all.

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The only product on the current market that I can think of is the MPC Live/X… All the other manufacturers purposely handicap their groove boxes to force you to buy multiple units…The problem with the MPC units is they feel similar to using a DAW… So I actually agree with what you’re saying, the market needs more all in one boxes… Song mode should be without question, a standard feature in them all… Whether it’s used or not…

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That could be true. It could also be true that some of these users will have $3000 in eurorack sitting on their desk but can’t stomach paying $1500 for a single stand alone groove box. Maybe it’s easier to add a new $500 module one at a time.

I distinctly remember that a great deal of people buying synths, samplers and workstations were not professional musicians. That is not a new phenomena in recent decades.

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@tallrobphilp, you make compromises by trying to do everything in a single box, no matter the box. Now whether or not those compromises work for your creative framework is entirely up to you. I do prefer to have a couple pieces that are strong compliments to each other. I agree with @AdamJay that sampling is essential, as is a strong or creative effects section.

One could make amazing things happens with a Yamaha RM1X and a Kurzweil K2000, covering any genre. Put some steps into grid mode on the RM1X, then record knob movements in over dub mode and you have what is essentially plocks, in a box that came out years before Elektron came up with the term. Further, one could probably do this for $600 out of pocket. We could go round and round with different iterations. :smiley:

I’ve owned and used a few of these production workstation units. The older higher end units can be more feature rich but the newer units have better sound quality at the expense of depth and flexibility, IMHO. (Analog and digital multi I/O plus aux? Yes please! ) I was able to get a lot of mileage out of the RM1X and the ASR-X but the OT and the MV-8000 remain, and together they offer potent capabilities. The 2 of these combined with a cheap laptop could be had for under $2000 all in, and you wouldn’t even need to use the laptop for audio recording, just sample management and editing.

We live in charmed times, people.

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That’s the best guide indeed. Maybe you have the opportunity to check out some boxes before you buy. If you enjoy the sound and the workflow, you might have found your box. Above you told us about having not too much time to invest. I would recommend to check out a MPC, if you like to work sample based. The learning of the MPC is very intuitive and the learning curve is quite flat. It doesn’t need to be a new model. There are many 2nd-hand units in good shape in the market.

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Owned 2 (maybe 3?) of them. I’d say probably the best sounding box I’ve ever owned. But I’d also say fairly convoluted; needs to be the master; and you need to gel with it and put the time and effort into it.

There where a number of quirks about it I didn’t like; things like the OS, structure, management, documentation etc; and getting it to fit into a wider setup.

I’ve always been of the viewpoint that if it was your only box / one of a few; and/or you had plenty of time to invest in it, it is well worth grabbing.

The lad I sold it, who’s an awesome cat btw, had put some serious time / effort / energy into it and rocks it as part of his live rig.

Younger me with a lot more spare time would have loved it. Older me with less time, more commitments, and more easier/quicker gear… not so much.

Would happily nab one again.

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Yeah MPC Live would fit the bill but it’s not a very inspiring piece of kit.

Look into Maschine.

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