The best sample based “song starter” groovebox for initial ideas and loops?

The Lounge Other Gear
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I’ve got a bit lost in my quest for a groovebox that suits my workflow. As I’ve grown into ableton, the main goal of using a groovebox has changed slightly. Initially I had some designs on Dawless setup that lets me make full songs. But now the dawless component is mostly a couchable sketchpad for making loops and initial ideas, which I then send off to Ableton for development.

My music has been charitably described as sitting somewhere between Burial, The Field and Jamie XX. That is lots of samples, lots of chopped up sounds and loads of atmosphere ideally. As I’ve got deeper into a workflow that suits me I’ve noticed myself judging grooveboxes slightly differently.

What I like a groovebox to be is some form of song starter. That is I will sit down for an evening and use a bunch of samples to make perc loops, little melodic bits, ear candy, or atmospheres that serve as a bed for a track developed in a DAW. I’d rather not drop the stems in, mix and call it done (I think.)

My ideal box is a single groovebox, no need for sequencing other gear etc here.

We’re talking 4-16 tracks, sample based ideally with playable pads and polyphony one way or another to make beds/chords as mentioned. In a pinch I have a Launchpad for that if the device doesn’t do it out of the gate. Good fx with a character not replicable in a DAW is preferred. Most importantly, it should have a fun workflow for messing with sounds, ideally something that avoids analysis paralysis by being intuitive and playable.

On portability, using a power brick is no issue if it’s easy to use on the couch with headphones that will do the trick.

Key options

Budget
EP-133,
Circuit Rhythm
Model samples

Main pro for all these is the fun/fast workflow, whic fits the brief, but having owned the Rhythm, my biggest gripe with these is while it is fun to make stuff on them, getting stuff off them to carry on working with it less fun. Of this group, maybe the EP-133 sits best because of the FX & polyphony.

On its own
Sp404mk2
Cost wise it packs in a ludicrous amount of what I’m looking for and now has stem export. I believe this one kinda has to be your main box else it’s too easy to forget the button combos.

High(er) end
Digitakt II
Tracker+
Play+

The “no velocity” group. These are higher end boxes, and it feels like the Tracker and Play have some advantages, specifically in terms of the generative/fill functions and now mounting the computer as an SD card means this is so easy to get ideas out. Digitakt always tempting, but currently looks like tracking out is also via audio until Overbridge support is added. Slightly moving beyond initial sketchpad at these prices?

Initial thoughts

I’m naturally drawn to the EP-133 for fun factor, and that you aren’t going to make full songs on it. But as always the extraction issue of getting stuff off it sounds a bit of a pain. The sideways but simple move would be to go back to a desktop Tracker which introduces a smidge more playability than the Mini. One interesting thought here is about performance effects. As I understand it, all of them have some interesting effects, but they lack the ability to record those effects, with the exception of the SP404mk2. In that scenario, that actually draws me to the cheaper units since tracking out in groups or individually is needed either way to get the most of the effects anyway. I’d probably have to find a way to make recording out work and if I’m doing that, I might as well go with the fun of the EP-133.

Any specific thoughts on this one folks… worth shifting away to something new, or is it possibly best to stick in Tracker land?

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After going through a few options myself, I came back to the circuit rhythm. Using the resample option, I create all the stems I need and just copy over those stems to the computer.
I have the ep133, but my workflow is heavy based on resampling stuff.
Maybe this can give you some new inspiration

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Definitely open to a return to the Rhythm. Cheers!

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I have the ep133, 404mk2 and digitakt. As for sample mangling the digitakt ist the king here and gives you awesome tools to shape your sound. But it is not as immediate as the 133 for example.

The 404 has tons of features and is a good all in 1 box, but for my taste it is too cumbersome to use all features, if you want to have the flexibility same flexibility as you have in a daw. Of course you could limit yourself to only use the features you need and ignore the rest, but it’s still a somewhat complex machine compared to the others.

The 133 is awesome for quick jamming and sketching. It’s immediate and fast to use. I like it the most of the 3.

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If you intend to flesh out and expand the ideas in a DAW,

I think the original DT would be perfect. I’ve seen them going for stupid prices too.

  • You can get fuller stereo in the DAW.
  • OB works great on DT1
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This is a good shout. The OG Tracker is available dirt cheap in certain places, and the Digi has also come down to that price bracket also.

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Not hardware as such, but Koala on the iPad is pretty amazing for coming up with loops and chops, and it can export either stems, loops, or into an Ableton set.

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Yeah, this is my thinking. I have some trepidation about it give the hardware concerns (no worries at all about the Rhythm, the SP and others) but I like the look of what you can do with the FX.

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Had most of those you mention and play+ is my fav

I was similar. Looked at groove boxes for making songs then realised none replaced Ableton so opted for the most fun one I can sketch out ideas to bring into Ableton and that was the play+

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Interesting, thought it was just me!

With the Play, any thoughts on whether the Play OG is a decent bet at this point? Synth engines are cool and all, but is there anything else compelling that makes the Play+ the better bet do you think?

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Really quick to lay stuff down and great for happy accidents.

Once your happy with the groove you can switch to performance mode and all the pads trigger different effects with different settings

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And usb audio into Ableton to record the live performances then slice and chop at will

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Yeah in guessing that’s the way round no chopping directly on the device itself?

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I think this is a recurring dilemma for many of us. I think we all make the mistake of not realising what we really want, because of the abundance of tempting devices that are “almost there”, with different degrees of comprehensiveness and overlap.

I’m inclined to think that one needs to think long and hard about what is meant by “sketchpad”. My Kaossilator 2S can be a sketchpad, live looping over 2 bars and then you export layers as separate tracks. Your smartphone can record your humming, that is also a sketchpad. The MC-101 and the Model:cycles can be sketchpads. Everyone has a definition of a sketchpad. Some people use huuge devices as just “sketchpads”.

The moment you get into sampling with any device, things get complicated, by the very nature of the task. Then one wants sequencing, then p-locks, then fx, etc etc. So you really are aiming to getting close to a finished song. It’s a rabbit hole. Then one wants the SP-404 sampling, the OP-Z or Elektron sequencer, the Roland library… at the same time. And then a final eq and limiter, and multiple outputs, and extensive midi implementation. Jeez. You can spend many hours on any such device (if it exists) refining things. What for?

The real question is, if you anyway are going to do stuff later in a daw or similar, why do you need the complication? What is a “sketch” for you? Do you want to just capture the inspiration, or develop half a song with all the bells and whistles already?

Overall, I’d say go with the absolutely most intuitive, easy workflow for you. Say, something to load my samples into (once!), then step sequencing, I want to lay drums then bass then lead, I want it pattern-based. Or, I just want free-flow live recording using stock sounds. Or audio live looping. Etc.

Forget about functionality and features that are not indispensable for your desired workflow. Eliminate noise. Every single device will be lacking one way or another.

Just honest advice anyway.

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My vote is start with the ko2 and see how you like it. I don’t like sampling much because I write and compose but I think the ko2 is a great tool at a fair price.

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If you’re on a tight budget, I recommend the EP-133; otherwise, go for the Deluge.

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Yeah I wouldn’t really need to chop on it though as I work with single shot samples rather than loops

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did I miss the part where we ruled out mpc? is it just too costly? second hand is pretty cheap these days… pretty sketchable too, or lots more if you want it to be.

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On a good day you will feel inspired by anything. On a bad day it all sucks.

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I would say OG Tracker.

Mine is up at £250 and not a sniff of interest in a couple of months. That’s an insane bargain.

It’s super powerful when you know all the tricks and people don’t realise but you can resmple and bounce down. I hardly use the synths on the mini.

You can export stems so it’s the ideal tool to take to Ableton.

I haven’t had the circuit Rhythm but like the Tracks (which I have) you have to prepare things in advance through a laptop and then exporting is useless so it’s more of a jamming device than a track starter IMO.

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