I do not think Behringer will be successful in the eurorack modular market as I don’t see pricing being such a driver there as regular synths but if they are, I’d guess there will be some “little” eurorack companies that will struggle, perhaps even close up. That’s just the way market competition works, especially if you’re talking about such a small niche industry like modular eurorack unless Behringer taps into a new market.
But can’t imagine cheap Behringer modules are going to open up a floodgate of new eurorack users who just “couldn’t afford it” before because they only had 2k to spend on synths & not 4k.
I imagine DM12 sold fairly well but I don’t think I’m going out on a limb to say they would have sold more if they had straight cloned the Juno. They went from DM12 homage to Juno to Poly D straight clone & there’s probably a reason for that.
Big pharma, defense contractors, insurance companies, drug dealers, prostitutes all serve a space in the market. Much needed? Eh, that’s up for debate.
All I’m saying is there is no free lunch. Behringer are in a unique position to distort the synth market due to their economies of scale & willingness to eat margins because they make their real money on expensive mixers or whatever. They’re probably selling lots of synths but not making very much money.
Not saying Berhinger is bad but this consumerist, nearly mindless clamoring for dirt cheap clones is disturbing & I say that as someone who just fell in love again with my Neutron last night. I’d hate to see gear culture turn into some fast-food like disposable wasteland.
I’d hate to see companies like Sequential, Moog or Elektron go under because people who can’t afford $1k-2k synthesizers wind up buying $1k-$2k worth of Behringer synths which end up used at Guitar Center for half off anyway.
I want to tread carefully here… I’m hesitant to replying to anything out of fear of not understanding context and intent. I’m simply trying to discuss and not attack. Please don’t misunderstand that.
“Behringer are in a unique position to distort the synth market due to their economies of scale…” – they’re in a unique position because they chose to invest in themselves and double down building out their own factories and parts while (most) everyone else outsourced and introduced middleman eating away at their already thin profit margin. It was a gamble and could have easily blown up in their face. Risk vs. reward.
“I’d hate to see companies like Sequential, Moog or Elektron go under because people who can’t afford $1k-2k synthesizers wind up buying $1k-$2k worth of Behringer synths…” – If I spend $500 on Behringer synths, because I can’t afford $2k worth of Moog was I ever really a Moog customer to begin with? IMO, no, because I wasn’t Moog’s target customer. I can’t afford a $1MM home, so if I buy one that’s $100K am I robbing that from the high end builders? It’s ultimately a different product with different appeal and brand image. If Sequential, Moog or Elektron go under it’s because their ideas and brand aren’t resonating with their target market. Mercedes and BMW don’t compete with Honda or Kia for lower end market share. If I can afford a Mercedes, I buy it for a number of reasons and not necessarily because it has 4 wheels and is the cheapest option.
What do you mean? Poly D is not a straight clone… it has extra VCO and paraphonic mode for example. In a way, it’s to Minimoog exactly what DM12 is to Juno.
It’s currently second best selling synth at Thomann, so someone obviously cares…
Sure. But there s the non-negligible case of the buyers that do have the funds for the original but will buy B’s knock off instead. That’s where it really hurts the original creator.
I don t think Moog is the best case to build the discussion around though. See my argument about eurorack just a couple posts up.
Room for another debate: Thomann, Sweetwater, etc. vs. small, independent retailers…
As to the Behringer/China production controversy: First of all, I assume most electronic components used anywhere come from China nowadays. And second, in many low-wage countries, working conditions, health & safety, and remuneration of local workers in foreign-owned factories tend to be better than in the locally-owned no-name subcontractors that supply well-known Western brands, simply because they are more visible and under higher consumer and investor scrutiny than their locally-owned counterparts.
I’m referring specifically to the LOOK of the synth. It looks like a Minimoog because Behringer knows it will sell better to make it look exactly like the Moog than if they put it in a Deepmind chassis, which would have been cheaper for them as they already have them.
Likewise. I just don’t want the mod taking a machete to me. I am not trying to attack Behringer or people who buy their gear because I would be attacking myself. I own a Neutron & have owned the Boog & DM12. I am just advocating for thoughtful consumerism, which I realize is an oxymoron, at least in America.
This is literally true of every monopoly or anti-competitive corporate behemoth. Microsoft, Google or Facebook or the oil barons or the Rockerfellers … everyone got to that position by investment. But in Europe & the States, there’s a nominal recognition it is undesirable & detrimental to have companies with oversized market influence due to inherent to scale or unique competitive advantages.
It’s cheeky to say that any theoretical Moog failure would be because their ideas/brand aren’t resonating when Behringer’s biggest synth calling card to date is capitalizing on Moog’s ideas & brand! There’s a reason why Poly D looks like a Minimoog & not a Deep Mind, which would have been cheaper to put in there as they already had the chassis.
And honestly, I haven’t met this mythical “poor” artist who hasn’t but a Windows XP computer & 2 pennies to rub together that wouldn’t be able eat 1 meal a day, much less make music if Behringer hadn’t come along to sell him a “cheap” $300 Moog knock-off.
What I’ve seen more of is synth heads who are stoked to collect all these classic sounds like Pokemon cards at non-vintage prices. Nothing wrong with that. I’d like that Roland vocoder & UB-XA myself. But it’s possibly a double-edged sword in the long run for people who love synths & synth culture.
I just read an interview with Tom Oberheim where he says the elephant in the room is availability of low-priced, good-sounding gear. He didn’t expound on it but the implication is that it will eventually be impossible for people like him to continue doing what they do because the market will not pay for it when there’s already cheaper, quality alternatives.
Look at all the rad synths coming out like the Hydra or UDO Super Poly or Modal Poly Pro. I’m probably not going to buy or play any of them but I’m happy they exist. I love reading about them & listening to demos & figuring out how they might fit in my setup.
I’d hate to see that dry up in a few years because Behringer saturated the market.
Mercedes & BMW aren’t boutique operations making cars for the love of it. It’s not a great analogy but that might be where it’s headed.
Right now, you can buy a Minataur for USD499, sometimes Mother32 or DFAM too. But they may exit the lower price market. You used to be able to buy DSI/Sequential synths in that tier too but now their cheapest offering is the Rev2. I’d hate to see a synth market where only Mark Mothersbaugh & Tycho can afford new Moog & Sequential synths or the inverse where Elektron only makes cheap $400 Model:ETC boxes trying to compete w/ Behringer.
I’ll give you a different analogy. Record Store Day, an event that was supposed to bolster independent record stores but mutated to where it really just puts them under tremendous pressure now while fostering an entitled Black-Friday mindset in consumers & squeezing out true independent record labels in favor of the majors & major indies. I live in a large city where the only record store participating in RSD just went under.
Why in the world would they put Minimoog inspired synth in a Juno style case? In case you haven’t noticed, Deepmind case has lots of similarities to Juno.
And of course it will sell better in a wooden case because it looks awesome… it’s what people want.
Maybe Tom could consider lowering prices in his synths too?
I would never have money for Oberheim, but thanks to Behringer, I can still own good analog synths. If Behringer didn’t exist, only priviledged and rich people would have access to these sounds. I think that far outweighs the sad fact that Tom maybe can’t ask multiple thousands for his synths anymore.
Why in the world would they put a Juno chorus on a Minimoog? The Deepmind looks like a homage to the Juno. They would have sold more if they had made it look almost exactly like a Juno & put the analog chorus on there.
They didn’t make that mistake twice. The Poly D is a straight knock-off. Hey, it’s a smart move & absolutely the right one for business reasons.
As for the rest of it, it’s all valid. Making more good gear accessible to more people is a good thing. I can’t afford an Oberheim either. But there could be unintended consequences is all I’m saying.
Maybe one day hopefully, you & I will be able to afford a new Obie & it’d be a shame if all there was at that point were Behringer clones, major brand workstations & the used market, don’t you think?
But I do think more than a few first-time-semi-modular Behringer hardware buyers will get the B modules to expand on the voices they have on those 149/199 boxes.
If this is the case, there will be new modular users who will (or will not) buy also more boutique stuff later.
There is an end to this spiral of doom. Namely: users stop fetishising vintage and get back to preferring new stuff that can’t be so easily cloned. In this sense, the likes of Roland may be savvier than they get credit for. They know they don’t want to compete selling a basic commodity, which is what analogue synths will inevitably become if there is enough demand because they are simple technology by today’s standards. I can see Behringer driving out competition for basic analogue now their factories are operating, but let’s see if they can compete with the other players on new tech, beautiful design and musicality. If they can’t, it’s them who will be left holding the bag when voracious synth hoarders tire of analogue monos; if they can, they deserve success and plaudits.
