Syn/smp toggle issue on pattern/kit change

[Open_Mike]

Hello,
On one of my projects if I switch from a pattern/kit that has BT with only smp toggled on to a pattern/different kit that has BT with only syn toggled on, the second pattern triggers the new proper synth sound but also the sample from the previous pattern as well for the first few trigs.
This also happens without the sequencer running just hitting the pad and changing pattern/kit while continuing to hit the pad.
Messed with amp settings, aftertouch, no change. No lfos being used, no strange plocks…
Oddly it seems to be an issue with longer samples. By switching to a shorter sample or lowering the sample end parameter it will stop happening, but the amp hold and release will not tame it…

Running 1.31, haven’t updated to b yet but saw nothing about this in the release notes… Not using OB…

Anyone experience similar?

[Open_Mike]

I recreated this on a fresh project and also found a work around. It’s getting late here and I’m a bit too tired to explain it but I’ll edit this post tommorow…

[avantronica]

I can’t replicate (latest b os) with and pattern change mode

Best to describe a repeatable process using the simplest / fewest steps from a clear kit & clear pattern

[Open_Mike]

This is the most minimal bare bones example I could come up with:
I did this on a new empty project but I suppose cleared patterns and kits will do…
Use kick drum for both kits.

On a clear empty 16 step pattern and fresh kit:
Place a trig on step 1
Toggle smp to off
Set sample volume to 100, don’t select a sample
Save kit

Load to project factory default “zen” sample
I suppose you could use another sample but it has to be long like 6 seconds or so

On another empty 16 step pattern and fresh kit:
Place a trig on step 1
Toggle syn to off
Set sample volume to 100 and load “zen” sample
Set the amp hld and dec both to 1
Save kit

Play the second pattern first and then sequential change to the first.
What I get is the very short sample burst (because of amp) and then on pattern change I expect to hear only the synth drum, but I actually hear the sample from the previous pattern as well for the first cycle.

Note: I didn’t choose the zen sample because that’s something I would do, I chose it because it was long and then realized that’s something I would do…

[avantronica]

Set sample volume to 100, don’t select a sample

This is what it hinges on … with this Amp ‘open’ should the previous sound be cut, even though it is not retriggered … note that the SMP toggle is still not retriggering the zen sample … easier to verify with a different sample, it’s possible to even repitch the already playing sample if the pitch is different for sample

I don’t think this is a bug, but I think it’s something that the developers should be aware of, if they don’t know already

I think on balance I prefer the current behaviour, especially as it relies on you having an odd arrangement where you have a sample level up which can be easily dropped to prevent it completely (especially if no sample loaded or toggle for sample)

But yeah, I see what you’re describing, I think it feels right as is

[Open_Mike]

It’s strange though because in this case the first track had ended with the amp closed so there was no sound, and then upon the next pattern it opens revealing the sound. Seems there could be some logic to deduce that the amp was closed upon leaving a track and the track being entering has the smp parameter off, therefor knowing to cut the sample?
In my actual project it was much different and I did have a sample loaded on the second track that I like to toggle on or off, and the note did adjust as well and also was sent to reverb and delay!

[Open_Mike]

Gears turned off for the night, but I remember not being able to remedy it with a plock on sample vol to zero on the second pattern and having to use a plock on sample str and end as the same number.
I feel like it may have even happened with overall smp level down, oh well, it’s late…
I’ll be exploring this more because it affects how I work with and expand my project…

[avantronica]

At my end with the zen sample, if it is pitched at say -24, it will ring out longer
If the sample is pitched at +24 and kit is saved, then the sample will decay and it will not be heard when the new pattern kicks in … so the only scenario for hearing the sound spill through is when it is triggered in other pattern and is naturally long in ‘decay’ (although I’m not referring to amp settings, all default)

Even setting unusually long length value for note length did nothing to confuse it, it all feels as expected on this os

@void may be interested in this, I imagine we may agree, but he always offers considered insights

[avantronica]

I’m in two minds about whether this is desirable/normal

I tried with amp envelope on the longer sample to ensure it was inaudible before the pattern had elapsed … it is then somewhat of a surprise to hear it pop back up when the amp is triggered by the other track (less sample)

It’s another case for pleading for to deliver the resetting envelopes for the Amp as well as the Filter … there’s scope in this case for this still being an issue, I’m now unsure about whether it is something to tidy up

[void]

yo!

yeah basically the logic is this (let’s ignore amp for the moment):

• whenever you trigger a voice, the sample and/or synth do their thing depending on the syn/smp setting on the trig page.
• both sample and synth will play out fully. Synth decays out, sample stops when it reaches end pos, or when looped, just plays forever. The only way to interrupt this is by choking the current synth/sample hit with a new trig.
• if a sample is playing, and a new trig comes in but does not trigger the sample (as in - new pattern/kit), that sample just keeps playing since nothing is stopping it. The sample will continue playing through the new sound’s settings as well.

just is how it is!

so to stop it… p-lock sample volume to 0 on trigs where this is problematic. Maybe it’s enough to do it with the first trig in a pattern.

[avantronica]

just is how it is!

yeah, good point re a looping sample (never tried that) … that really settles the issue conceptually, nothing to do with envelope, just the level of that source … it’s a little bit untidy when considering looping samples, it’s possibly (i’m still not convinced) a shame that a trig which has sample toggle off isn’t stopping the sample looping … I also see that interrupting normal decaying samples is problematic … it does seem to be that the current behaviour is okay on balance

[void]

yea a way to easily stop a longer sample would be cool…
the SMP toggle on the trig page is really only looked at once, when triggering a sound. any changes to these settings are only seen in the next trig that happens.

doing it manually, guess the best way is to temporarily disable loop & tweak start/end so that the sample becomes short…

[Bin]

if a sample is playing, and a new trig comes in but does not trigger the sample (as in - new pattern/kit), that sample just keeps playing since nothing is stopping it. The sample will continue playing through the new sound’s settings as well.

The old sample continues to play, but it uses the settings of the new kit. so if the new END is near the STA of the old sound, the old sample will stop, but if the new END is 127 the whole of the rest of the sample will play, which sounds a bit wrong with sample chains.

[void]

yea yea… pretty sure some sick transitions can be done with this behavior tho… happy accidents!

guess a feature request could be: add an option checkbox to the sound settings, “silence previous sample” or something

[avantronica]

it uses the settings of the new kit

indeed, I saw this with pitch, but I’m not sure the STA/END point is that straightforward

This scenario seems more problematic for me

K1
Loop Off sta 0 end 127

K2
loop on sta 0 end 1

even though the sample has not been re triggered and the sample position is midway (it gets restarted by the presence of a loop on)

so if your kits are unluckily configured and you have the syn toggle off on the track it is possible to transition to a track with no sample assigned and no toggle for sample active but yet have it play the sample at every trig … this feels like a bit more of an issue to mitigate against

particularly as I had the sample amp volume decay make it seem like it had gone, so if the sample hasn’t reached the END position by the time the new kit values kick in (even if STA END are at the other end of the sample) if loop is on the sample will be ‘locked in’ (albeit it is easy to rectify)

so on balance I think I’m more in favour of a managed decay of an existing sample, if it was possible

plenty more nuance for @Open_Mike to reflect/report on should he choose to

[Bin]

So if when kit switching, a voice’s old sample continues playing unless an SMP trig stops it, it seems inconsistent that when you choke a track that has SMP = 1 with a track that has SMP = 0, the sample stops playing on that voice?

[Open_Mike]

I’ve got my rytm warming up and I’m going to check a few things about this before I’m off for the day… It was a long night and I barely slept. Regarding what I would expect just as a user but not thinking to much about the intricacies of how all the logic works, these were my early morning ponderings that I almost posted:

“I don’t know, it’s almost four in the morning, but it seems if the track you were leavings amp envelope were open the sample should play for its release into the next track and possibly not be retuned because it will have different tuning relations to the next tracks synth and sample tune depending on what track your leaving and entering. If the amp envelope was closed it seems the sample shouldn’t appear.”

This may be over simplified but it’s a four in the morning thought.
I’m about to look into smp vol and how it relates, and some other things.
Another fun one is if your second pattern has smp str 127 and end 0, your sample can appear out of nowhere if the amp was closed, backwords, pitch shifted, and running to fx !
Honestly I’ll work with whatever because there are some quite sneaky awesome things you could do with this even though it seems quite strange, Voids “happy accidents”, but planned…
I’ll probably have a brief update in 45 then I’m off for the day…
Thanks y’all…

[Open_Mike]

Update:
As I suspected you can’t get around this fully with locked sample vol 0 on the next track if your general sample vol is up. If you place on the first step a trigless lock with sample vol 0 or lock that value to a trig, the sample will be silenced but only until the next trig or trigless lock that doesn’t have sample vol locked. It will appear again for the length of the sample, I believe the length being determined from the last time it was trigged lasting the duration according to sample str and end… So far my only way to not have this effect is to lock the sample str and end to make the sample shorter, locking both to 120 on the first step of the next pattern either trigless or trig seems to remove the effect at least with the sample I’ve been using…
Still unsure if I like or not like the behavior, if it’s an issue, or whether it needs to be fixed or not, some subtle intricacies to be explored… It is unexpected though to have your last patterns sample appear out of nowhere…
To be continued…