Suggestion: Selling gear only for established forum members

door · 2014-04-03T21:44:35.000Z

hmmm, luckily for me I’ve not fallen victim to a scam as of yet, which might have something to do with the kind of communication i try to establish with sellers/buyers.
I know there was a bit of a hassle in another thread where someone asked a seller „why do you sell your…?“ and it might not be the best way to ask this question in a thread that is open to everyone, but it’s one of the questions I surely ask in a PM or email, also to get a personal conversation about music and life going .
It might be a bit tedious for everyone involved and the trader can still lie me a river, but a private trade on a forum is not an online shop and you got to make sure somehow (or at least feel like doing so…) to not get scammed.

On my quest to acquire a pink Casio Sk-1 I had very strange conversations with sellers in two cases (one on craigslist, one on ebay) where I had to drop out…just got too fishy.
(one might get a nice read out of this old elektron-users thread:
http://elektron-users.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=28&func=view&id=170148&catid=12 )

A tie-in with the elektron support would work with elektron machines only and would also connect some „real“ world ID with one’s forum ID (well, depending on the way of transparency used…) and i don’t think that the folks here would be into this when i remember the „real world name“ thread correctly.

But post count (and therefore…how to say this without sounding like a stalker…getting some “credebility clues“ ?) as well as the sellers feedback thread seem to me the way to go – when someone posts 50 kitchen redesign offers and tops that with a tempting offer of a mint TR-808 for 1500$…one must renounce The GAS!

hmmm, maybe I should have split this thoughts onto several posts to get my count up…

glaciertree · 2014-04-03T23:58:23.000Z

+1 to post count or something. At one point I started looking at the post count first thing after seeing a sale thread.

avantronica · 2014-04-04T14:04:20.000Z

there’s a seller/now-buyer on here who is stretching the credibility veneer somewhat thin, he may well be legit and some folks may well have bagged a bargain, i have my hunches (although you never know), the total google history of this seller spans 1 week and it’s all sales, not prolific nor just audio, but all over europe, premium kit, some very cheap, blocked from selling on mutable for zero post count, it’s not implausible, it’s just the kind of risky thing (no digital footprint) i’d sidestep - some ‘too good to be true’ opportunities turn out to be true i’ve found to my cost

the guy i bought an OT from had a very unusual (almost swiss-cheese) backstory wrt the OT (and the sale mechanics and id verification) but the research i did, which took a while, paid off (it wasn’t a bargain mind you) ! the digital footprint was the clincher, nice enough guy, easy to say with hindsight, but i was bricking it 'til i saw the box

i suspect, despite any safeguards, that there’ll be scammers determined enough to exploit those afflicted with GAS, it alters your judgement

husc · 2014-04-04T14:14:20.000Z

I agree!

Also I like to see written exams on manual knowledge and a 100+ post count requirement for posting in anything but the general discussion. First we need get to know each other a little bit before we get down to business, right? Am I right?

Mcropode · 2014-04-04T14:42:54.000Z

This might not always be fair though either.

i’l give you my example… i’m not using my machinedrum and mono machine anymore so i genuinely want to sell them.

I’ve never posted any thing on this forum before i listed my kit for sale (even though i’ve been an elektron user for more than most on this site)

I used to have more activity on the ‘elektron-users’ forum but have since learnt to use my own gear and found no need/time to post random topics.

SO DOES THIS MAKE ME A DODGY USER?

AM I SERIOUSLY EXPECTED TO FORGET ABOUT SELLING MY GEAR ON THIS SITE JUST BECAUSE OF MY LOW THREAD ACTIVITY ON THIS NEW FORUM?

AtaRaxis · 2014-04-04T14:43:24.000Z

This seems a bit strange to me. I mean you can click on anyone’s profile and see a post count. Why impose some arbitrary number on lurkers and such, when there’s no way it’d substitute for common sense and a conversation

husc · 2014-04-04T15:00:02.000Z

""AtaRaxis"":

This seems a bit strange to me. I mean you can click on anyone’s profile and see a post count. Why impose some arbitrary number on lurkers and such, when there’s no way it’d substitute for common sense and a conversation

You automatically filter out all the bots and whatnot. Also preventing is easier. Anyone with a low post count could easily send a moderator a PM or start a sticky where they can explain why they want to sell inside a very small community driven forum without being an active member. Other forums do this as well and that seems to work fine!!

G0n35y · 2014-04-04T15:00:46.000Z

Im not sure about post counts and the likes - it’d just encourage junk being posted - but something should be suggested as good practice. I’m not sure what though. Maybe insisting on photos that also include, say, todays paper for the date which would be a small step to increasing legitamacy.

Educating buyers and sellers to beware of pitfalls is equally important.

Ihatederekreed · 2014-04-04T15:10:40.000Z

After some thought, and reading the replies, it could just simply be enough to encourage wise choises. If you intend on buying from a forum user, check their post count. Read their thread involvement. If these few things don’t seem to add up, simply be careful moving forward and ask a lot of questions. As a seller, I don’t think it’s a hassle to have to explain yourself a bit to a person who might be skeptical.

Awareness and logic by potential buyers should be common sense in these days.

jack_anger · 2014-04-04T15:37:40.000Z

Is it possible with this forum platform to connect buyer/seller feedback to individual user accounts? I’ve seen this on other forums where I’ve bought and sold gear and it seems to help as an added safety measure.

Another strategy, which I don’t really like, is to charge a small annual fee to be able to post items for sale. They do that in the Talkbass forum and it seems to be enough of a hurdle to deter scammers.

wintermute · 2014-04-04T17:32:09.000Z

I used to frequent a forum (can’t remember which) where there was an open thread for feedback. Something simple like

Just bought a MnM from X, quick replies to messages, very helpful, fast shipping and arrived in condition stated.

Don’t need to discuss prices, but may work to help.

NRain · 2014-04-04T17:33:27.000Z

""Mcropode"":

This might not always be fair though either.

i’l give you my example… i’m not using my machinedrum and mono machine anymore so i genuinely want to sell them.

I’ve never posted any thing on this forum before i listed my kit for sale (even though i’ve been an elektron user for more than most on this site)

I used to have more activity on the ‘elektron-users’ forum but have since learnt to use my own gear and found no need/time to post random topics.

SO DOES THIS MAKE ME A DODGY USER?

AM I SERIOUSLY EXPECTED TO FORGET ABOUT SELLING MY GEAR ON THIS SITE JUST BECAUSE OF MY LOW THREAD ACTIVITY ON THIS NEW FORUM?

Hello, please read in my first post that is was suggested that a non active forum member could ask an admin for an exemption to the rules. Not sure what the protocol would be for this but presumably it would help deter dodgy users. Also, we are just having a discussion about it at this time, nothing is changing at this time so no need to get yer pants in bunch

NRain · 2014-04-04T17:46:24.000Z

And as we speak there is one dodgy forum user trying to get his post count up and has already stated himself to be Swedish in public and Polish to a potiental buyer of his “big ticket item”… hmm…

Yes, ultimately it comes down to a bit of common sense, I find referring to previous posts a very usefull tool for determining the legitimacy of a seller (or buyer). Big ticket items I always ask for a phone number which I immediately call , I also ask for an address, absolutely no bank wires etc, any shifty or “scripted” behavior is noted and then there’s just good ol gut feeling so far so good but a couple scary moments… turns out a guy I bought 3k worth of PA amps from ended up in the hospital for a month before he could ship them… ?

Some method, whatever that might be, of making this a less ideal breeding ground for potential scammers would be good though as not everyone is savvy and it is for the most part a trusting environment around here, it is easy to get a little too comfortable…

avantronica · 2014-04-04T17:56:17.000Z

i notice he pulled his original questioning sell thread, but there’s an unsettling insight from this thread (2nd & 4th post) and a few other things seem odd from the outside, not to prejudge or anything … there’s a new buy thread, i don’t think i’d ship it, if i had one, based on the confused nationality amongst other things !

EDIT: ^ too slow reading other forums and google caches !!

Ihatederekreed · 2014-04-04T19:05:10.000Z

""wintermute"":

I used to frequent a forum (can’t remember which) where there was an open thread for feedback. Something simple like

Just bought a MnM from X, quick replies to messages, very helpful, fast shipping and arrived in condition stated.

Don’t need to discuss prices, but may work to help.

we have feedback threads pinned for each relevant subforum.

Ihatederekreed · 2014-04-04T19:19:58.000Z

While we are having this discussion, and especially after reading the most recent replies… i think as a community, we have to look out for each other. If you think somebody is trying to scam your forum friends, step up and say something. I understand that we are trying NOT to pin point people as forums can generally be a very combative environment… and so far we seem to do pretty well without it here…but if its a legitimate concern, lets voice it.

If you think somebody is trying to scam us. Say something. I think it is within reason to name forum names in the context of protecting the community as a whole. At the very least, PM any of the Mods and let us know. I try to keep an open eye, but i dont always skim the “for sale” sections unless i am in the market. Also note, that as Moderators here we only have access to our specific sub forums. I can only moderate the A4/AK forums for instance. However, send us a message with details and your personal opinion. I would gladly contact the person in question and try to get some sort of validity from them without overstepping what i assume to be personal boundaries. At the very least we could provide an unbiased opinion. If it is quite obvious and a no brainer, absolutely let us know. We will inform Jon (head mod honcho), and he can take further actions such as banning or “probationary” actions.

TrabanT · 2014-04-04T19:50:39.000Z

the original poster of this thread had the “spider senses” mentioned …

I must say (imho) trust your senses (spider, bat, Betazoids …)

in general, the idea of a minimum count of posts was welcomed, except for some users who are regulars and never post … well -shrug- …

another thing that popped into my head was:

how bout we offer all prospective buyers (and sellers) - HELP -

(hence we would act as a 3rd party MAYBE hold the money escrow till unit is shipped and arrived, or we want to see proof of ID, recommend having a phone number supplied, double check pictures of units with daily newspaper and / or serial number)

Nein · 2014-04-04T19:50:51.000Z

""Ihatederekreed"":

While we are having this discussion, and especially after reading the most recent replies… i think as a community, we have to look out for each other. If you think somebody is trying to scam your forum friends, step up and say something. I understand that we are trying NOT to pin point people as forums can generally be a very combative environment… and so far we seem to do pretty well without it here…but if its a legitimate concern, lets voice it.

If you think somebody is trying to scam us. Say something. I think it is within reason to name forum names in the context of protecting the community as a whole. At the very least, PM any of the Mods and let us know. I try to keep an open eye, but i dont always skim the “for sale” sections unless i am in the market. Also note, that as Moderators here we only have access to our specific sub forums. I can only moderate the A4/AK forums for instance. However, send us a message with details and your personal opinion. I would gladly contact the person in question and try to get some sort of validity from them without overstepping what i assume to be personal boundaries. At the very least we could provide an unbiased opinion. If it is quite obvious and a no brainer, absolutely let us know. We will inform Jon (head mod honcho), and he can take further actions such as banning or “probationary” actions.

Well said fully agree.

LFO · 2014-04-04T20:10:27.000Z

i think that’s a terrible idea…what is estzblished forum menber??? i’m pretty sure to follow eu and elektronzuts for a longer time than most of the people on this thread, and sell some gear by this board, but as it’s very rare i post; i suppose i’m not "establshed’… so whzt?? very close minded and a bit fascit to me…

NRain · 2014-04-04T22:54:17.000Z

""LFO"":

i think that’s a terrible idea…what is estzblished forum menber??? i’m pretty sure to follow eu and elektronzuts for a longer time than most of the people on this thread, and sell some gear by this board, but as it’s very rare i post; i suppose i’m not "establshed’… so whzt?? very close minded and a bit fascit to me…

You’re input to this discussion is more than welcome, but I have to say I find your comment a bit close minded. We are just sharing ideas here that relate to keeping trading via this forum somewhat safer. Please feel free to add something constructive. How would you propose making this a less friendly environment for scammers?