Smooth transition between kits?

datastream · 2014-12-17T19:51:14.000Z

""gbravetti"":

[quote=“datastream”][quote=“gbravetti”]

btw I´m working on a master scene device for the RYTM in MaxForLive.
It can save Level/Mute, Scene and Performance states that you can recall after, also if you have the PUSH controller, you can have the four RYTM’s modes at the same time with real time quantise for manual changes and the possibility to sequence them internally o remotely.
If you are interested let me know.

I’d definitely be interested. Have been meaning to build something similar for the Launchpad for sometime.[/quote]
Launch pad is an interesting choice also.[/quote]
Easily available from ebay for cheap.

AdamJay · 2015-03-17T16:09:49.000Z

I’d like to revive this thread to talk about other types of transition tricks within a Rytm without the use of any other hardware. I’ve been working on squeezing as much out of just my Rytm as I can, even for live performance work.

Something I’ve been experimenting with is loading up some old MachineDrum loops in CY/CB and MT/HT voices, as I rarely use those anyway. So I’m dedicating them to transitional loops.

I break the tunes down (via mutes) to kick/hat or kick/clap and then begin to bring in the transition loop

Here is a crude example, recorded live out of the Rytm:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7269379/rytm/rytm-transition-jam.mp3

This is a recording of mixing between two tunes with one transition loop.
First tune runs for about 1 min, 45 sec all on its own.
at 1:50 you’ll hear the transition loop come in (an old MachineDrum loop).
It is high pass filtered to take out the bass, and it resides on the same CY pad for both tunes, with a little LFO Bitrate modulation for variation on one tune, and without it on the other. So when I switch patterns, it’s still Kick/Hat/Loop, but a variation with some continuity before I build the 2nd tune up.

From 4:50 to the end I’m just switching patterns back and forth with only the transition loop solo’d so you can hear how it is slightly different in the two patterns.

So i figure having at least 4 of these kind of basic loops on the same CY/CB & MT/HT tracks in all my patterns, with some unique LFO modulation in each, and some filter/fx p-locking, will give me at least 12 transitions. In fact sometimes, it starts to get that old Doc Martin 3 turntable house vibe when you here a transition loop coming back in that you hadn’t heard for several tracks. Combine this with all the other transition techniques mentioned in this thread and you’ve got a solid case for an all Analog Rytm performance. Or, if you’re fortunate enough to have an extra Elektron box, it further expands your transition flexibility.

Taking the time to sample loops from the tunes that reside on your Rytm, and using those as your transition loops would also help bridge from one pattern/kit/tune to the next.

Of course the main limitations are the loss of voices (sound locks are a good work around for having only 6 voices), and having to work at a fixed tempo during transitions.

gbravetti · 2015-03-18T15:49:49.000Z

""AdamJay"":

I’d like to revive this thread to talk about other types of transition tricks within a Rytm without the use of any other hardware. I’ve been working on squeezing as much out of just my Rytm as I can, even for live performance work.

Something I’ve been experimenting with is loading up some old MachineDrum loops in CY/CB and MT/HT voices, as I rarely use those anyway. So I’m dedicating them to transitional loops.

I break the tunes down (via mutes) to kick/hat or kick/clap and then begin to bring in the transition loop

Here is a crude example, recorded live out of the Rytm:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7269379/rytm/rytm-transition-jam.mp3

This is a recording of mixing between two tunes with one transition loop.
First tune runs for about 1 min, 45 sec all on its own.
at 1:50 you’ll hear the transition loop come in (an old MachineDrum loop).
It is high pass filtered to take out the bass, and it resides on the same CY pad for both tunes, with a little LFO Bitrate modulation for variation on one tune, and without it on the other. So when I switch patterns, it’s still Kick/Hat/Loop, but a variation with some continuity before I build the 2nd tune up.

From 4:50 to the end I’m just switching patterns back and forth with only the transition loop solo’d so you can hear how it is slightly different in the two patterns.

So i figure having at least 4 of these kind of basic loops on the same CY/CB & MT/HT tracks in all my patterns, with some unique LFO modulation in each, and some filter/fx p-locking, will give me at least 12 transitions. In fact sometimes, it starts to get that old Doc Martin 3 turntable house vibe when you here a transition loop coming back in that you hadn’t heard for several tracks. Combine this with all the other transition techniques mentioned in this thread and you’ve got a solid case for an all Analog Rytm performance. Or, if you’re fortunate enough to have an extra Elektron box, it further expands your transition flexibility.

Taking the time to sample loops from the tunes that reside on your Rytm, and using those as your transition loops would also help bridge from one pattern/kit/tune to the next.

Of course the main limitations are the loss of voices (sound locks are a good work around for having only 6 voices), and having to work at a fixed tempo during transitions.

That’s a great idea!
May be another approach in the same style is to bounce your own patterns to convert them to “transitional loops”, a simpler version without the kick and another strong elements.
As an addon you can use scenes to change that transition loop (sample slot lock) depending on which track are you heading up, so from one pattern you could in theory perform a smooth transition to another 12 patterns. Or eleven if you want to keep pattern = scenes relationship straight.

gbravetti · 2015-03-18T16:01:24.000Z

AdamJay,

Another idea to be able to change tempo is to hide transition elements using the advantage of lock Synth and Sample triggers independently.

This way you can have two independent drum lines on the same track, then you can use Synt Lev vs Sample Lev to choose with line is playing.

I think this approach is similar to your example but on this one you are not tied to tempo.

AdamJay · 2015-03-18T16:12:48.000Z

""gbravetti"":

AdamJay,

Another idea to be able to change tempo is to hide transition elements using the advantage of lock Synth and Sample triggers independently.

This way you can have two independent drum lines on the same track, then you can use Synt Lev vs Sample Lev to choose with line is playing.

I think this approach is similar to your example but on this one you are not tied to tempo.

I like this idea. Will have to experiment!

My goal is to be able to get as much out of my Rytm as possible, to have the ability to do the entire performance from the Rytm.
Then - do the same thing with my Analog Four. And finally when combined, have an independent understanding of each as stand-alone instruments, so that their sum is greater than the total of their parts.

I started using a re-amped Korg Volca Sample in the Rytm’s input for backing and transitional percussion. But I almost feel like this is cheating. Hehehe. It’s a very affordable solution, though, and sounds good hitting the Rytm’s compressor.
In the end, I’ll probably use the Volca more than my internal Rytm loops for transitions, as it’s more flexible, but the experiment has opened me up to using more loops in the Rytm for compositions. I’m dedicating those 4 pads in 2 voices to loops now.
If only we could resample with it…

AdamJay · 2015-03-18T16:14:31.000Z

""gbravett"":

As an addon you can use scenes to change that transition loop (sample slot lock) depending on which track are you heading up, so from one pattern you could in theory perform a smooth transition to another 12 patterns. Or eleven if you want to keep pattern = scenes relationship straight.

Clever!

Bin · 2015-03-19T12:18:28.000Z

What is wrong with just changing pattern?

AdamJay · 2015-03-19T12:47:32.000Z

""Bin"":

What is wrong with just changing pattern?

When changing patterns means changing kits, and the kits have noticeably different sounds, the change is more abrupt and not as smooth as the operator may wish.

Bin · 2015-03-19T17:19:10.000Z

""AdamJay"":

[quote=“Bin”]What is wrong with just changing pattern?

When changing patterns means changing kits, and the kits have noticeably different sounds, the change is more abrupt and not as smooth as the operator may wish.[/quote]
Using performance morphing can’t always help since moving sample start points or slots will probably sound bad, and not all parameters can be locked eg machine. Using scenes , I don’t see any sonic advantage over just changing patterns, worse even since it’s not quantised, and you can’t lock all parameters e.g note or synth on/off. So far I quite like some of the transitions between patterns with diff kits, it can sound musical to me.

The stuff with loops and fading sounds like a pain. If I bothered doing this it could be fun to use a Detroit style spin back.

On the other hand, changing patterns is currently so unreliable that I will probably use all these methods.

gbravetti · 2015-03-19T17:39:48.000Z

""Bin"":

[quote=“AdamJay”][quote=“Bin”]What is wrong with just changing pattern?

When changing patterns means changing kits, and the kits have noticeably different sounds, the change is more abrupt and not as smooth as the operator may wish.[/quote]
Using performance morphing can’t always help since moving sample start points or slots will probably sound bad, and not all parameters can be locked. Using scenes , I don’t see any sonic advantage over just changing patterns, worse even since it’s not quantised, and you can’t lock all parameters e.g note or synth on/off. So far I quite like some of the transitions between patterns with diff kits, it can sound musical to me.

The stuff with loops and fading sounds like a pain. If I bothered doing this it could be fun to use a Detroit style spin back.

On the other hand, changing patterns is currently so unreliable that I will probably use all these methods.[/quote]
There is no need to lock synth/sample on/off, when you can lock their levels, this way you can have two different drum lines per track and use the scenes to choose which one is audible.

The idea is that when pressing a scene, some elements are replaced by transition elements, those new elements are also stored in others kits/patterns, once at the upcoming pattern you proceed to replace (again by using a scene) those elements with the default elements for that kit.

Bin · 2015-03-19T19:34:26.000Z

""gbravetti"":

There is no need to lock synth/sample on/off, when you can lock their levels, this way you can have two different drum lines per track and use the scenes to choose which one is audible.

The idea is that when pressing a scene, some elements are replaced by transition elements, those new elements are also stored in others kits/patterns, once at the upcoming pattern you proceed to replace (again by using a scene) those elements with the default elements for that kit.

But changing scenes will cause a glitch in the sound, because there is no quantize…

Bin · 2015-03-19T19:42:28.000Z

I don’t really understand what problems occur with changing kits via pattern change …what kind of glitches occur? I can understand if you wanted to crossfade, but the transition seems pretty tight to me, if it works at all.
The big problem I get is with the sequencer not changing pattern predictably.

gbravetti · 2015-03-19T20:52:19.000Z

""Bin"":

[quote=“gbravetti”]There is no need to lock synth/sample on/off, when you can lock their levels, this way you can have two different drum lines per track and use the scenes to choose which one is audible.

The idea is that when pressing a scene, some elements are replaced by transition elements, those new elements are also stored in others kits/patterns, once at the upcoming pattern you proceed to replace (again by using a scene) those elements with the default elements for that kit.

But changing scenes will cause a glitch in the sound, because there is no quantize…

[/quote]
Not necessarily.

gbravetti · 2015-03-19T20:57:55.000Z

""Bin"":

I don’t really understand what problems occur with changing kits via pattern change …what kind of glitches occur? I can understand if you wanted to crossfade, but the transition seems pretty tight to me, if it works at all.
The big problem I get is with the sequencer not changing pattern predictably.

Basically what we want when changing from a Pattern/Kit to another is not to change the Pattern/kit completely but to change just a fraction of it.

Like to start playing some tracks from Pattern/Kit B but keeping some tracks playing from Pattern/kit A. This would make the musical transition between those Patterns/kits more smooth than changing the whole content abruptly.
With the actual OS this is not possible, and that’s why we are looking for some ways to “achieve” similar results.

PS. We know that this could be possible using an intermediate Pattern/Kit, but the idea is precisely avoid using a third Pattern/Kit to achieve this.

Bin · 2015-03-19T22:00:41.000Z

2 drum machines? House method.

Dancehall method, let off an air horn or siren and announce your next cut through a delay on maximum feedback.

I always favoured mixing in the bit with no beats…

gbravetti · 2015-03-19T23:47:50.000Z

""Bin"":

2 drum machines? House method.

Dancehall method, let off an air horn or siren and announce your next cut through a delay on maximum feedback.

I always favoured mixing in the bit with no beats…

hmm 2 drum machines… that could work!

AdamJay · 2015-03-20T01:45:32.000Z

""gbravetti"":

[quote=“Bin”]2 drum machines? House method.

Dancehall method, let off an air horn or siren and announce your next cut through a delay on maximum feedback.

I always favoured mixing in the bit with no beats…

hmm 2 drum machines… that could work! [/quote]
It does!
I’ve employed my Volca Sample for transitional rhythm purposes only. Cheap solution, just needs a low cost active mixer (Rolls MX22s, Mackie Mix5) to get the last few dB the Rytm’s input sorely needs. But it does the job and hits the Rytm compressor nicely.

gbravetti · 2015-03-20T03:12:18.000Z

Sorry, I was being ironic.

abletonian · 2015-03-24T12:42:48.000Z

@Gustavo

any progress with your max for live patch ? please let me know i’m interested a lot

gbravetti · 2015-03-24T13:50:53.000Z

""abletonian"":

@Gustavo

any progress with your max for live patch ? please let me know i’m interested a lot

Almost done with the snapshot part.
When the snapshot part is ready I will create the Push-Launchpad integration.

So far I have.

Snapshot for the next parameters:

Rytm/
pattern, track mutes, track level, active scene, performance levels.

Analog Four/
pattern, track mutes, track levels, performance knobs.

All work from a single device and it uses a satellite app to communicate with all the elektron’s boxes.

Snapshot is recalled using midi notes (if you set a negative micro timing for the first step, parameters are changed in advance so you don´t miss step 1)

there are 32 “banks” of 16 snapshot each (will be more banks)

bank is selected with the note velocity and snapshot with note value, this way you can place on a MIDI track on the Octatrack, one note with a fixed velocity on the first step, then use the arranger to transpose it, this way you can launch any snapshot using a single pattern trough the arranger, or use the OT keyboard.

I will add an option to link snapshots to OT A´s selected scene.

I also added a link to the OT crossfader. Any of the controlled parameters can be modulated with the OT crossfader, positively or negatively. My algorithm is relative so there won’t be jumps or anything, all adapts very well so far.

Also you can use the OT crossfader to mute unmute tracks. Basically the OT fader is divided in three posible states, A, B and “in the middle”, each of this positions can Mute, Umute or ignore any track from the RYTM or the AF. The same approach was added to RTYM scenes so you can have 3 scenes per snapshot to control them with the OT crossfader if you need them.

All parameters can be recalled instantly, quantised. or ignored. So for example you can set a snapshot to mute RYTM track 1 and set Analog four track to level to 64, and the app will do just that leaving the rest untouched, this give you a lot of freedom to improvise but at the same time helps with key points of your Live.

As soon I finish this stage I will put it public then if all works as expected I will start the hardware part with Push and the Launchpad