Dear elektronauts,
I will soon have gigs where I will perform with the analog keys and the octatrack.
My question is : should I use a Direct Box to get a better signal before going into the mixing desk’s venue?
Thank you for your help,
Axel
[quote=““le tarsier””]
Dear elektronauts,
I will soon have gigs where I will perform with the analog keys and the octatrack.
My question is : should I use a Direct Box to get a better signal before going into the mixing desk’s venue?
Thank you for your help,
Axel
[/quote]
a direct box is not going to give you a better signal, since the devices are already outputting at line level
i take my own mixer and give them the mains output, then i can control all the levels myself and they can just tailor the final 2mix to the room however they want… also you can overdrive the preamps or the channels or whatver you want, because the FOH guy probably wont let you do it or they wont know how much, etc. etc.
if you are a solo act you can get away with this because you dont need a separate monitor feed for each instrument or whatevr… you can also just use the outs from your own mixer if you have in-ear stuff
Even when using your own mixer you should use a DI. DI change your typically unbalance line level down to balance mic level. This allows better noise reduction, and better gain stage choices overall. Also a DI allows to pad an excessively hot signals down if needed. One other thing a DI can provide is a ground lift for issues with buzz or hum in your signal from power or ground loop issues. So yes i recommend using di’s.
all elektron devices have balanced outputs - which eliminate ground hum… in fact, they are more common than unbalanced outs
my advice is to avoid superstition in the audio world (and every world for that matter)
The individual out of the rytm are not balanced. FYI. Not superstition. Audio facts.
Hi Le Tarsier
Main outputs are balanced already.
So long as you have TRS cables then it should be ok (and the mixer accepts TRS 1/4 jacks).
Individual outs are unbalanced, so I would check with a borrowed DI whether there is a difference or not
do they have balanced outs? hmm? when they have balanced outs, you can use the balanced outs
if you want to use unbalanced outs, go ahead
When your not using your own sub mixer your not going to run 150’ of 1/4" to the FOH board. Don’t be a douche.
All the Elektron machines have Impedance balanced outputs, not balanced.
Balanced has 2 conductors of opposite polarity, (not phase), & a ground.
The 2 opposite signals are compared at the input & any ‘differences’ are amplified.
Anything that’s the same, (noise) is rejected.
Impedance balanced systems simply wire the 2nd conductor (cold) to ground.
Whilst shunting any noise picked up on the Cold wire to ground it also opens the door to any noise picked on the ground wire being present at the input!
Use a pair of quality ‘active’ DI boxes, BSS, Klark Technik, Radial etc
Btw for very short runs, connecting AR & A4 to OT for eg, unbalanced is fine.
100m running the length of the venue might pose a problem or 2 
Yeah,
I prefer passive DI’s for sure. Radial for the ISO transformers.
I carry a stereo DI with me whenever playing. Even if you don’t use it. Doesn’t have to be expensive (ie. those blue Sampson boxes sound fine) - just working, with a non-flat battery - which means, don’t trust in what the venue can provide - if anything.
[quote=“” invisible acropolis""]
all elektron devices have balanced outputs - which eliminate ground hum… in fact, they are more common than unbalanced outs
my advice is to avoid superstition in the audio world (and every world for that matter)
[/quote]
Being balanced does not elimate ground hum introduced from ground loops. btw. That’s why they put ground lifts on DI’s. Balancing will help elimate noise that is picked up from the environment but not everything. Impedance balanced outputs can still pick up buzz on the ground line. This is why you lift the ground with a DI.
Being balanced does not elimate ground hum introduced from ground loops. btw. That’s why they put ground lifts on DI’s. Balancing will help elimate noise that is picked up from the environment but not everything. Impedance balanced outputs can still pick up buzz on the ground line. This is why you lift the ground with a DI. [/quote]
A balanced output always consists of two leads, neither of which is connected to the equipment ground. The input of the device receiving the balanced signal sees the voltage between the two signal leads. The cable shield, unlike with an unbalanced connection, carries no signal current (at least, it’s not supposed to). The cable shield is connected to the equipment’s chassis, and it becomes the reference point for any noise voltage picked up by the cable on its way to the next link in the signal chain.
On the receiving end, the signal is applied between the two inputs of a differential amplifier or a transformer at the device’s input, rather than between a single point and ground. The output of the differential amplifier, as its name suggests, is the difference between the two inputs. What gives a differential input its advantage is its ability to cancel out common mode noise, that is, noise (unwanted signal, really) that’s identical on both signal leads. Since the difference between the same two numbers is zero, any noise added to both signal leads will be cancelled. This not only includes noise picked up by the wires, but also noise on the ground, since the ground may be common to both inputs.
Back to the value of the differential input: When a cable connecting the devices gets too close to a noise source, noise current is induced in both wires (presumably equally since the wires are very close together). This causes the noise current to flow through the two circuit paths. Here’s where the requirement for equal output-source impedances comes into play. Noise current going to the (+) input of the differential amplifier flows through the source impedance Zout1 while the noise current going to the (-) input of the differential amplifier flows through Zout2. Since the currents and impedances are equal, Ohm’s Law tells us that equal noise voltages will be seen at each of the two output terminals of Device A, each one resulting from the noise current flowing through its respective Zout. To a differential amplifier, volts are volts, and the noise is indistinguishable from the desired signal.
However, since the noise has the same polarity at both inputs, when the differential amplifier at the input of Device B subtracts the two voltages, the resultant voltage is zero. Presto! The noise is canceled. This, known as common mode rejection, is the advantage of a balanced connection.
[quote=““invisible acropolis””]
[quote=“Madchiller”][quote=" invisible acropolis"]all elektron devices have balanced outputs - which eliminate ground hum… in fact, they are more common than unbalanced outs
my advice is to avoid superstition in the audio world (and every world for that matter)
[/quote]
Being balanced does not elimate ground hum introduced from ground loops. btw. That’s why they put ground lifts on DI’s. Balancing will help elimate noise that is picked up from the environment but not everything. Impedance balanced outputs can still pick up buzz on the ground line. This is why you lift the ground with a DI. [/quote]
A balanced output always consists of two leads, neither of which is connected to the equipment ground. The input of the device receiving the balanced signal sees the voltage between the two signal leads. The cable shield, unlike with an unbalanced connection, carries no signal current (at least, it’s not supposed to). The cable shield is connected to the equipment’s chassis, and it becomes the reference point for any noise voltage picked up by the cable on its way to the next link in the signal chain.
On the receiving end, the signal is applied between the two inputs of a differential amplifier or a transformer at the device’s input, rather than between a single point and ground. The output of the differential amplifier, as its name suggests, is the difference between the two inputs. What gives a differential input its advantage is its ability to cancel out common mode noise, that is, noise (unwanted signal, really) that’s identical on both signal leads. Since the difference between the same two numbers is zero, any noise added to both signal leads will be cancelled. This not only includes noise picked up by the wires, but also noise on the ground, since the ground may be common to both inputs.
Back to the value of the differential input: When a cable connecting the devices gets too close to a noise source, noise current is induced in both wires (presumably equally since the wires are very close together). This causes the noise current to flow through the two circuit paths. Here’s where the requirement for equal output-source impedances comes into play. Noise current going to the (+) input of the differential amplifier flows through the source impedance Zout1 while the noise current going to the (-) input of the differential amplifier flows through Zout2. Since the currents and impedances are equal, Ohm’s Law tells us that equal noise voltages will be seen at each of the two output terminals of Device A, each one resulting from the noise current flowing through its respective Zout. To a differential amplifier, volts are volts, and the noise is indistinguishable from the desired signal.
However, since the noise has the same polarity at both inputs, when the differential amplifier at the input of Device B subtracts the two voltages, the resultant voltage is zero. Presto! The noise is canceled. This, known as common mode rejection, is the advantage of a balanced connection.[/quote]
In a perfect world this would be true. Are you living in one?
Nice copy/paste from: http://www.presonus.com/community/Learn/balanced-unbalanced
A little more info from the:
Myths, Half Truths, and Misconceptions
part of the article:
[li]Balanced inputs and outputs hum less than unbalanced because they’re low impedance. Partially true. Most balanced outputs are low impedance, but with solid-state equipment, most unbalanced outputs are low impedance as well. When improperly designed or connected, low-impedance connections can hum badly. When properly designed and connected, unbalanced connections can be hum-free. The only high-impedance connections we must deal with today are between electric instrument pickups and amplifiers. It’s true that hum isn’t uncommon here, but it’s because of the design of the pickup, not the connection.[/li]
You keep ignoring the fact that Elektron and many other manufacturers use IMPEDANCE BALANCED CONNECTIONS:
From: http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/impedance-balancing/
Sometimes also called pseudo-balancing, quasi-balancing, resistor balancing, ground compensated balancing, or any of a dozen other similar names. There are some differences between these, but basically it’s a method of creating an output that will function similar to a balanced output without having to employ all of the electronics normally required in a fully ([url=“http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/differential/”]differentially) balanced system. The benefit is reduced cost and sometimes increased overall flexibility without losing much performance in many situations.
Here’s what it is and how it works: In a truly balanced output there are two conductors and a groundwire. The two conductors each have the output signal on them, but at opposite [url=“http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/polarity/”]polarities. Refer to our WFTD, [url=“http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/balanced/”]Balanced, for more background on this. Having this signal on both wires is beneficial for several reasons, but one of the biggest benefits is just in having the two wires, even if signal is only on one of them. A balanced input is able to look at the hot and cold wire’s signal and compare the difference between them. Any differences get amplified; any signal that’s the same between the two gets cancelled. That means noise and hum picked up in the wires along the way will get cancelled, and any signal – even if it’s only on one wire – will get amplified. It’s a great system, but comes at a cost in terms of the components required. If you’ve understood everything so far you can now see that you can drive an [url=“http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/unbalanced/”]unbalanced output into a balanced input and still get much of the benefit of the [url=“http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/cmrr/”]CMRR (Common Mode Rejection Ratio) of that input. In such a configuration it is common to tie the ‘cold’ wire going to the balanced input directly to the ground at the source end of the wire. Any noise picked up along the wire can get cancelled at the other end. However, because the cold wire is tied to ground the noise picked up is more or less killed right there, or ‘shunted’ to ground as they say. Consequently most of it doesn’t show up at the balanced input, which never gives that input device the opportunity to use it to cancel the same noise that was pickup up on the ‘hot’ signal wire. Further it opens up the possibility for noises on the ground line to get into your audio through the negative side of that balanced input.
And in regards to hum on BALANCED LINES: from: http://www.rane.com/note151.html
The “Pin 1” Problem
Many audio manufacturers, consciously or unconsciously, connect balanced shields to audio signal ground; pin 1 for 3-pin (XLR-type) connectors, the sleeve on 1/4" (6.35mm) jacks. Any currents induced into the shield modulate the ground where the shield is terminated. This also modulates the signal referenced to that ground. Normally great pains are taken by circuit designers to ensure “clean and quiet” audio signal grounds. It is surprising that the practice of draining noisy shield currents to audio signal ground is so widespread. Amazingly enough, acceptable performance in some systems is achievable, further providing confidence for the manufacturer to continue this improper practice – unfortunately for the unwitting user. The hum and buzz problems inherent in balanced systems with signal-grounded shields has given balanced equipment a bad reputation. This has created great confusion and apprehension among users, system designers as well as equipment designers.
Similar to the “pin 2 is hot” issue, manufacturers have created the need for users to solve this design inconsistency. Until manufacturers provide a proper form of interconnection uniformity, users will have to continue their struggle for hum-free systems, incorporating previously unthinkable practices.
Anyways enough quoting. Theres plenty of info on the subject online. People can follow the links and find there own. I recommend against spreading misinformation.
For the record I am a sound guy here in New York city. I have spent over 16 years on the road touring with major artists. Most of them are grammy winners. I have seen it a lot, and I know we do not live in a perfect world. DI’s are your friend.
Peace.
Also I do not recommend active di’s for anything other than pickup based instruments like acoustic guitars, violins, old basses, ect.
Batteries are bad for the environment, and although they can use phantom power, it only takes a dirty connection to create problems.
But here’s more info from Radial Engineering: http://www.radialeng.com/di-questions.php
you dont need a DI box
end of story
now go make some grammys, you bad ass, you
lol