Hands down
1 Like
Not sure I agree, the only thing that’s significantly different on the DT is the fact that it can sample and has Overbridge, but the M:S has a few tricks of its own: knob per function UI, dedicated track pads with velocity sensitivity, smarter filter implementation and the chance parameter which IMO is the coolest new Elektron function in ages.
1 Like
@HoldMyBeer: Thank you for your reply. It does preserve duration when playing at higher or lower pitches?
I’m a bit surprised that the other thing, changing duration but preserving pitch, is not possible at all. A very long time ago I bought a new Yamaha VSS-30. Fun, but limited with the sampling feature. Understandable, it’s technology from wayback. But now it’s 30 years later and technology has developed so much since then, Moore’s Law and all that. So I’m surprised that such a thing is not possible on a new machine that costs 400 euros today. Can the Digitakt do it?
The Digitakt can’t timestretch either. As for the logic behind that - they’re both designed primarily as drum machines.
2 Likes
I don’t think the duration of the sample is preserved. To my ears, for instance, pitching down sounds like it slows the sample a bit. The pitching down is similar to pitching down on a turntable or cassette player. It slows the sound down. And on the M:S, like some other samplers or hardware that have a pitch function, it introduces some digital crunch.
Also there’s no ADSR. Which is why I haven’t bought one yet myself personally.
Once and if they implement that then I’ll acquire one.
That’s just something I can’t work without.
2 Likes
@HoldMyBeer: thank you for explaining. And the video, I’ll watch that.
@Anfim: but that’s what I kinda expect from a drum machine you can load with samples. Using a drumloop from someplace, adjust it to the right BPM you want so it’s a bit slower or faster, but preserving pitch.
Or, from another perspective, it’s the lowest level of commitment (in money and time spent learning the system) needed to try ‘the Elektron way’, giving you enough of an honest taste to see what the rest of the range are about, while leaving an easy out if you don’t mesh with the workflow.
With respect to Elektron, this is is ‘how things are around here’. Elektron boxes are good examples of opinionated design - the team have spoken before about how they specifically don’t want to make boxes that can do it all, and how if something is a certain way, it’s usually because of a specific choice to make it that way. This can feel brilliant, focussed and original when it’s a choice that works for you, and… harder when it isn’t 
1 Like
There’s some stuff in the video mentioned above that I have to watch again to fully understand what’s going on, the one comparing the M:S and DT. My impression, the M:S is a cool machine, but the DT is pretty badass. What I like about the M:S though, (almost) knob per function. It will probably take some time to really get to know the DT and what it can do. Would be nice to get one in good condition second hand.
The timestretching and pitchshifting issue, it’s not a dealbreaker, I’m just a little surprised about it. Changing duration, preserving pitch, if needed I can just do this in software, then use the processed sample with the M:S/DT. Changing pitch, preserving duration is possible too this way, but could be somewhat time consuming.
With a machine like the MS or DT you don’t adjust the sample loop to the BPM you want, you adjust the BPM to the loop you have. If you have a loop that is one measure long you trigger it on step one, let it play out and adjust the tempo until it loops to your liking. Don’t be beholden to a predictable tempo. Live on the wild side! 
2 Likes
It’s still a limitation, although a limitation you can live with most of the time. After watching some more videos, I think I’ll be happy with the M:S spending a limited amount of cash. But if I decide to increase my budget, I’m not sure abot the DT. Watching some stuff what the 1010Music Blackbox can do and how it works, it looks pretty nice too.
A video by loopop shows exactly what I mean, see here and start watching at 8:07. First it shows the box works like it’s a tapemachine, but then the timestretching and pitchshifting. It’s a feature one doesn’t use all the time, but I think it can be very useful sometimes.
I completely understand why people love timestretch, it’s really useful, but there are a lot of other options to get things to fit. Yea, it can be seen as more work, but not using timestretch really taught me how to work with sound. Chopping everything up (not using loops), pitching it up or down, adding reverb or delay if there’s a gap, ect, ect. I’ll play with the sound to get it to fit & sometimes I come across something that sounds even better than if I timestretched it.
It’s 1 reason I like gear with limitations. It makes you find other ways to do things & you learn so much that way.
2 Likes
@Sharris: I totally see your point. Not to blow my own horn, but I do think I’m OK with audio editors and did this stuff, chopping up sounds, adding effects and more to make something new. The easier stuff, some spacey ambient, no worries about really tight timing of beats. 
Although it’s not entirely to my taste, I think Burial deserves mentioning here, apparantly he only used SoundForge. Kinda same thing, but his was far more complicated and probably quite timeconsuming to produce. Respect for that.
Right now I would like to use something away from the computer and I don’t mind a box packed with nice features and not too many limitations. And there’s always the option to use other gear with limitations with a box that offers many possibilities. The Yamaha VSS-30 I mentioned before, I still have it, would be fun to use it with a M:S, or DT/Blackbox.
1 Like
I almost always switch timestretch off on the Octatrack for similar reasons, plus sound quality. The SP1200 didn’t have timestretch and it was used to create plenty of amazing records…
2 Likes
The MS will more than likely make you fall in love with the Elektron way. After I bought a MS, I ended up buying a Rytm. I enjoy using them both. I don’t plan on getting rid of either.
The Elektron way is about limitations, but not a drastic amount. The OP-1 is a device with way more limitations, but people still love it and create cool music with it.
A major part of elektron devices is the button combination shortcuts. I think they’re pretty logical and once you learn them you can really fly around the interface. I truly love the way you can copy and paste just about anything. It’s an awesome way of creating without a computer. I’ve used other devices that seem much clunkier when it comes to shortcuts.
Embrace the limitations and you’ll find yourself having lots of fun!
If I decide to limit my budget, then it’s likely I’m getting the M:S and see what it can do, accepting it’s limitations and find workarounds if needed. If I decide to buy something more expensive, I’m just less willing to accept limitations. Yes, you can make an argument limitations is good for creativity, but it’s only true up to certain point. I understand Elektron designs its machines in a way that comes with limitations, and users like it because it stimulates their creativity, but looking at it technolgy-wise I feel less comfortable about it. The timestretching/pitchshifting thing, I think it’s quite natural to expect this functionality above a certain pricepoint. Whether you like this functionality or not, perhaps turning it off because you don’t want to use it, I think it should be available to users so they have a choice. The Blackbox shows it can be done (maybe other machines do it better but the Blackbox does a decent job I think) at a pricepoint lower than the DT. However, the Blackbox lacks functionality when we’re talking about the sequencer. But suppose it was better and they sell it for the same price as the DT, I don’t think it would be a though decision what to buy.
I got a Black Box and what I can say about that one, is that while it’s fairly defined when it comes to features - as in there aren’t that many, compared to many other samplers - they’re extremely well thought out. They work really well together and create an eco system of sorts, where in many cases like a Best Of Sampler Features thrown in, and the rest left out.
The Model:Samples is great in many ways, but like many of Elektron’s instruments, features are left out because it’s part of a vision you don’t always understand. There’s no real reason the Digitakt samples in mono or can’t time stretch, for example. It just can’t. And that’s fine. But there’s no way it would’ve been a more confusing or muddled product, if it could. It’s a product strategy. One either adheres to it, or not.
But I just don’t think there’s a lot of that going in within the Black Box. It’s more like “Let’s just pick the greatest sampler features, throw them in a box, cut out the rest and see what happens.”
However, I guess everyone’s idea of what those features might be, will vary. But you wouldn’t find many saying “I don’t want stereo or time stretching” when it comes to samplers. We’ll go “Oh, it’s not there? All right, I guess, I can still do cool things with this.” But no one goes “Yay!”
There’s more Yay! moments within the Black Box, I think.
1 Like
@circuitghost: Thank you for your thoughts on the subject, very helpful. When you say “best of sampler features”, I think that’s exactly what I’m looking for when buying something above a certain pricepoint. I’m trying to figure out “the rest left out”, regarding the Blackbox. What I’ve seen so far, it seems the Blackbox would work really well with a external sequencer. But (for now) I just want to buy one piece of gear, so trying to figure out if the sequencer capabilities of the Blackbox are sufficient for some time at least.
Worth mentioning, a few years back I bought a Zoom R-8 for something else, I still have it. I’m not sure if it helps, but I can use it with the box that I’m looking for right now. Didn’t think of it to use it like that at first, it goes against the “one-box-to-do-it-all”-philosophy I had in mind, but the Zoom is a nice little recorder, easy to use once you know how it works.
1 Like