Send request weirdness?

Elektron Gear Octatrack
#1

I’m sending CC61=0 to my Octatrack from a Faderfox EC-4 so I can sync state when turning the device on or when switching banks or parts and when I do the Octatrack goes nuts. It basically randomizes tracks…well…randomly. It’s turning LFOs on, changing pitches, etc. every time I send this CC value. It also makes it so quick mute shows the buttons slightly faded and track 16 ends up permanently green.

What the hell is going on?

It does seem to send the CCs out to my EC-4, though, so at least there’s that. To send the request I have a single encoder on the EC-4 set to channel 1, CC number 61, and have also set the min and max to 0. Perhaps this is the issue…because it’s an encoder when I wiggle it it’s probably sending a lot of requests really quickly which may be too much for the Octatrack, but then again what else would Elektron expect? It’s not at all common in my experience for a MIDI controller to have a dedicated button only send a static value and not some opposite state when released or held.

Edit: I figured out the stuck green light thing. It’s because this random thing that’s happening also soloed one of the MIDI tracks. This is insane.

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#2

Looks like wrong values are sent back to OT after EC4 received all CCs. Is there a soft thru option on EC4? I’d deactivate it.

CC61 value 0 seems ok.

I would use a midi monitor software to decipher…

@tnussb, you have one EC4 isn’t it?

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#3

Yeah that’s it. Disabling the merge functionality of EC-4 solves the problem, but then I lose my clock. I’m merging an external clock out and the Octatrack into the EC-4 and sending the EC-4 back into the Octatrack. Which now that you mention the thru it makes more sense. I request params, then the Octatrack basically receives all params right after. Looks like I need another solution and unfortunately neither the EC-4 or my external clock source can MIDI power my little MIDI solutions merger box.

Ugh. The market for MIDI utilities suuuucks. Having trouble even finding a way to merge MIDI other than this :sob:

Thanks for the help.

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#4

I wouldn’t say that, better than before!
RK005, RK006, MIDIHUB, A880, ME30P, MIDI MERGER (MIDIMAN, cheap with external power or midi power, I have it)…

What is you external clock?
OT can’t be master?

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#5

Yes, I have. And, yes, as you already guessed it: you need to be quite careful with the soft thru option.

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#6

Ok maybe I stand corrected. My statement was a little too blanketed but in my defense googling “MIDI Merge” reveals only MIDI Solutions, DOREMidi, and (both which need MIDI power)a $95 Kenton option which is the only one that suits my needs (this is where my negative comment stemmed from - I just don’t want to pay that but hey…that’s life). I’ll check out those options you mentioned and try to up my internet search game. That MIDIMAN looks perfect. Not easy to come by!

At home my external clock is Ableton > Expert Sleepers ES-9 (via CV Tools)> Westlicht Performer (serves as clock master for modular rack) > Octatrack. In a live situation it’s just Westlicht > Octatrack. I can technically go the other way and will experiment today. I seem to recall any scenario where Ableton is not master ending up badly but it’s been a good year or so since I tried.

#7

I guess from Ableton it’s via a soundcard.
Does it give power to the merger ?

I that case you can send from Ableton to the merger + EC4 > OT IN
OT THRU to send the clock

#8

Appreciate the thinking but no way to power merger from Ableton with my current setup. What you say makes sense though that would probably work if I had an audio interface with MIDI out that could also provide power. From Ableton I use ES-9 which is a DC coupled interface so the clock I send out from Live is an audio pulse, not MIDI. This clocks my modular system and my modular sequencer conveniently has a mini MIDI out for external gear.

The ideal solution for this point in time does seem to be a merger that can be powered from an outlet so I’m going to go that route as soon as I can find an affordable one. In my hierarchy of needs this is more of really nice-to-have than a real need - just the two way between EC-4 and Octa. In the meantime it might be a blessing in disguise as the whole process of sending a params request is kind of janky anyway. I wish it would just happen automatically (hint hint good folks at Elektron ;). I’m switching patterns pretty often in a set and the context switch of having to manually send this CC is kind of a pain. At the same time there’s nothing like have all 8 amp decays or whatever at my fingertips all at once…and likewise without it it’s kind of pain to have to select a track and parameter page to access the parameter you want to tweak, but at least that feels natural, but in the end the manual sending of CC vs track navigation is still less manual operations which is super important in live setting.

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#9

That’s the point. I have optimized it by not using the EC-4 for the request itself, but a dedicated button on another cheap controller (a configurable foot switch would perform also great). This way it doesn’t eat up one of the encoders.

BTW: when you remember which patterns use the same part you won’t need to send the request after each pattern, just when the part changes (like between different banks). In most cases my songs won’t require more than a single request at the beginning (one bank per song).

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#10

I set up midihub to automatically send CC request on program change. I’ll post about it later, but essentially when it receives a program change it sends CC61 automatically. Since after part change CC61 only returns values for tracks that have trigged since the part change, i’ve set it up to send CC61 again 2 bars after a pattern change as well. Can be extended further.

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#11

Interesting. I was imagining something like a single button to do this for me. Right now I just sacrifice a group for it (press group 16, turn encoder 16, then go back to group 1 or whatever again to get back business). Well, that’s the theory anyway :wink: still need to get it working correctly haha.

I’ve only had the Octa for a couple weeks so still haven’t found my footing. Coming from Digitakt which doesn’t have this concept of parts, I’m having trouble getting used to it. So far I’m also using banks like songs, but using all four parts split amongst the 16 patterns in a somewhat logical way - definitely requires sending the request on each pattern change (well, depending on the flow). So for example pattern 1 and 2 are the same, only 2 has more conditional trigs and longer decays on most sounds to build more excitement. This is accomplished with parts that are almost identical. It’s a huge PITA to make sure the levels and other values that shouldn’t change between part 1 and part 2 are the same, but worth it because going from pattern 1 to pattern 2 sounds great (this continues for all patterns, where pattern 3 and 4 are the apex or peak time moments). The other approach I’ve thought of is to use parameter locks between patterns to build variation, but then I lose relative manual control in a live situation not to mention programming is much, much more tedious and we’re back to the same problem as keeping sounds between parts the same, only multiplied by the count of patterns and triggers!

That sounds very handy, and also a little confusing at the same time since I was not aware that “CC61 only returns values for tracks that have trigged since the part change”. I’m trying to think this through please correct me if I’m wrong: if I have pattern 1 on part 1 and pattern 2 on part 2, when I go from pattern 1 to 2 and then request params, I’ll only receive CCs for tracks that aren’t muted? Which would then mean I’d be in an unsynced state…
Curious to hear more about this!

#12

not to mention the fantastic Bomebox, the iConnectivity product line, the MRCC from Conductive Labs… lots and lots of high-performance solutions for any budget

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#13

Thats why I avoid part changes when possible, and use sample locks to change samples instead of parts. I’m mostly use scenes and the crossfader for variations, and also add trigs with or without conditions with one shots or FILL.

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#14

No, mutes will have no effect. What matters is whether the track has been trigged, so whether you have put a trig on the corresponding track and it has been ‘hit’ by the sequencer.

One of the simpler ways to ensure some continuity between parts is to copy and paste the part you started from and make changes from there, personally I don’t have any issues with level changes etc; the reason i’m changing parts is because new material is being introduced.

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#15

I’m facing the exact same behaviour. EC4 and Octatrack combo with CC61 request. Haven’t found a solution yet, but working on it. Hopefully you have solved it by now!

#16

I was able to solve my issue using Midihub – MIDI Interface & Stand-Alone MIDI Processor as mentioned here (thanks all). Fortunately I needed it for more than just this scenario, and have been pretty pleased with it.

#17

@Lokua can you share that preset? Or is it a simple transform program change to CC and then sent back to the Octatrack?

I’ve just ordered an EC4 and want to try that to have feedback between both

Btw, does Octatrack send program change when switching patterns the same way it sends when you set it up in the MIDI tracks?

Anyway, if you can share it that’s great :slight_smile:

Thanks!

#18

Not in the manual :
The CC request CCs are sent on the lowest audio track midi channel not shared with a midi track.

Default is channel 1. If you set a midi track to channel 1, it becomes channel 2. If you set 2 midi tracks to channels 1 and 2, it becomes 3 and so on…

If all audio tracks have midi channels shared with midi tracks, nothing is sent.

If audio tracks channels are off, nothing is sent.

Audio tracks channels are set in MIDI > CHANNELS

I recommend midi monitoring to check what is sent.

No sure about CC OUT, but it should be on.

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#19

I assume you mean the preset on the EC4? I’ll be away from my EC4 for an indefinite amount of time so can’t share it right now but off the top of my head I set up the first knob on an otherwise unused group (group 16) to send CC61. Whenever I want to sync state I just quickly press the group then turn the encoder down to 0 and then go to back to the groups I’m using to control parameters. It’s slightly cumbersome but works well. Didn’t think to try transforming a program change from Octa into CC61 - seems like a better approach, good idea.

#20

Beware, the PChanges sent with MIDI > SYNC page are sent just before pattern change, so you’d have to delay CC request.

PChanges sent with midi tracks are sent at the beginning of the pattern, seems more suitable

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