Rytm as a groovebox?

[anthonynordge]

@cogsy

As someone who owns both, I’ll come in. The Rytm does have 3 DVCO tracks. And while they sound excellent, it’s worth keeping in mind that they have limited range and tracking can be an issue, especially for the FM engines.

sorry can you elaborate more? what do you mean by tracking can be an issue ? do you mean in the mix?

@cogsy

The OT is a beast at sample making, but you have to feed it to get the most out of it. And while you can do synthesis with it, it’s best as a sampler/looper. As @MichalHo upthread aptly stated, they can both do both but…

i hate that they can do both makes me it even harder to choose, both can do pretty much the same thing and i kinda hate it hahahah i mean yes rytm doesnt have midi in sequencing and other stuff, but as undeceive as i am, this makes it very hard to choose

@cogsy

Rytm: synthesis > sampling
OT: sampling > synthesis

i kinda dont mind either? i was leaning more towards the rytm before, but now that i know the OT can be a synthesizer as well it makes it harder to choose since i sample drums pretty much in everytrack and dont bother with making my own drums

but even the rytm can synthesize using single cycle wave forms just like the OT and the DT so i could save up the other 2 bottom tracks for the dvco for other drums

this is a loophole lol

[anthonynordge]

@Sleepyhead

I’m pleasently surprised by the love the AR is getting in this thread! I always felt like it is kind of considered an underdog to the OT on this forum.

hahah yes i was surprised as well i thought id get comments only vouching for the OT

@Sleepyhead

I own both and the AR is my favorite machine of all time. To me it is the greatest all in one groovebox to use as a standalone machine next to a daw, because it is great at the things daws are bad at:
-great hands on workflow and sequencing
-limitations which spark creativity
-analog synthesis
-analog filters, drive, distortion and compression
-great performance features (scenes, perf mode, slide trigs, etc)
-amazing sound

what do you think of the 3 dvcos ? is it only good for basslines? or can do nice leads as well? some people really dislike the sound of those, however i saw a couple of vids on youtube those vcos sound crisp and nice

i would like to use both for bass and leads so not just bass duty

@Sleepyhead

-endless fx

regarding effects, does the OT and the RYTM have the same amount of fx? i know the OT has more LFOS while the rytm has one i think? other than that should i know anything more about the differences of effects between these boxes?

@Sleepyhead

The OT to me is more like a replacement for a daw, so it works better as a centerpiece along lots of other machines. As a standalone groovebox I’d suggest the AR over the OT, but I’d also advice you to look into the DT as well, as it is very much like the AR, minus some of its benefits (analog synthesis, kits, indiv outs etc) but also minus some of its quirks (weird workarounds, clicks, sometimes too heavy sound). If you know how to use the DT, you know how to use the AR, so you can always upgrade down the line.

will learning the AR help me out learning the OT in the future? i know theyre completely different hence the complexity other than how the sequencers work

[cogsy]

@anthonynordge

sorry can you elaborate more? what do you mean by tracking can be an issue ? do you mean in the mix?

As far as the DVCO’s, they can’t play high notes. Above a certain note number, it simply will not play a higher pitch. As far as tracking, the FM is analog, so don’t expect the pitch to track well over a large range. Meaning a fourth or fifth may not be exact, so it may sound out of tune if played with other melodic elements. But DVCO is an absolute killer for basslines

[min0nim]

In all honesty - get a Rytm.

Many, many of us have bought the OT, only to sell it (and then buy it again). If you’re looking for Ableton in a box, it can do that…but it’s not where its strengths are. It can be overwhelming for a first timer. It’s an older box, any people get disappointed by the effects and time stretch qualities, until they understand their place and limitations.

The Rytm is probably the perfect techno all in one box. Don’t get hung up on synthesis vs samples. It takes time to get any of the synths sounding great. Lots of people use it exclusively with samples, and samples sound brilliant through Rytm. It will also work better with Ableton until you can figure out if you want/need any external effects boxes (e.g. a co presser is pretty much essential for techno), and all the individual outs will help you here too.

The Rytm is a much more complete instrument than the OT, and when you get the hang of it will allow you to combine an OT in the future in natural and exciting ways.

And don’t overthink it. Trying to compare the features of and OT vs AR is not going to be especially helpful. You wouldn’t compare all the features of a trumpet vs a flute. They’re completely different things that have a couple of seemingly common features.

[George_Michael]

thanks!
The OT can certainly shine for live performance too but yeah, I’d say the rytm might have a little more going for it for live tweakability, if only because the analog circuits and all of the parameters that you can affect either manually or with scenes, performance.

[Sleepyhead]

The dvco’s have a special sound, but are very quirky as well (weird tracking sometimes etc). They sound unlike any other synth I’ve ever used, someone on this forum once described em as having a ‘hairy’ sound, which for whatever reason sounds right to me haha. I often mix the dvco with some single cycle waveform synth (you can mix synth/sample on a single voice on the AR. The single cycle sample synths sound amazing going through all the AR’s analog circuitry, so the dvco’s are a nice bonus, but the single cycles got you covered for amazing synth sounds without tracking issues. All the needed parameters are there (filter env, amp env, drive, fx etc).

The FX are very different between the 2 machines. The OT has 2 insert fx per track, which can be picked from a list of fx. You can also use tracks to add more fx to other tracks. Most sound kinda outdated, but they all work for what they’re meant to do, and some can get very experimental. Also, there’s 3 lfo’s per track. The AR has some standard per track insert fx (analog filter, drive, one lfo) and some global send fx (delay, reverb). Then there’s also a master comp and distortion. They sound great, but there’s limited options on all of em. The upside compared to the OT is that they’re always available and don’t take up fx slots or even tracks.

between AR and OT I agree with @min0nim: get a Rytm. But I’d still advice you to look into the ST and DT as well. They are serious machines which make the step up to an AR easy. The OT has kind of a different dna then these others, so it will be easier to learn coming from the other machines, but this will still not be a walk in the park haha.

[pokk]

Good luck on your journey.

I think it’s worth pointing out that the Rytm isn’t a drum machine, more a drum computer, which might seem splitting hairs but i think this is why I struggled with my AR for so many years. It has a lot of dna taken from classic Roland gear but unlike that Roland gear it feels very different, in that it isn’t as immediate, nor sounding as good out of the box. Most drum machines are pretty preset heavy and focus around dialled in sounds that work super well together or have huge sweet spots. I found i definitely have to get the AR setup to use it in certain ways to get better results, probably why projects and kits are popular as a useful shortcut. Once you do that though it sounds pretty damn good.

I have been doing uploads to Youtube most days with free projects, mainly to push this machine to its limits and to dig deeper why I struggled initially, and already after 54 uploads, i have shifted to enjoying this bix more and more. The videos cover a range of experimental sounds, approaches that may be useful for you to help you decide your direction to create and free projects to try out, some Google Sheet to help with setting up Keyboard tracking, which for me having grown up around techno since the 90’s, super important. I think this comes from using the SH101 so much, it’s just so useful, and the Rytm doesn’t do that out of the box, but you can set it up pretty quickly and it makes a huge difference to me.

You also mention the 909, and there is a way you can do round-robin style with samples using the LFO, which does make 909/808 samples work really well. I have posted how-tos and samples elsewhere on this forum and my Github, along with AR projects most days.

The other thing is although the AR has one LFO internal per track, you can set it up to use a track as an LFO or modulator and then use one or both of the Control In’s for more LFO’s. You can even modulate the modulator. This make it sound similar from your standard LFO to env follower style or audio modulation.

I have been playing around with sampling Korg MS20 LFO shapes and using that to modulate stuff, which i will probably share later today, sounds pretty dope.

Good luck with your choices and do share your techno when you make it.

Here are some useful links for you, and anyone else who might be lurking here.

Keyboard tracking math:

Kybd tracking math

AR projects:

GitHub - sm-ll/ER: Projects from the Elektron Analog Rytm Mk2

YouTube channel:

4 DUAL VCO patterns, because SH101 is too big live : Analog Rytm Mk2 : Free project incl.

Round Robin setup and files:

How to do Round Robin in the Rytm Mk2 using the Sound Pool

Although there are some bits online and in this forum about Round Robin, I struggle to find a clear and concise way to do this, and especially focused on the Rytm Mk2, so wanted to place some information here for others and also point to some useful sounds to help with everything. Also maybe there are other ways to do this that might be useful to add that I don’t know about or maybe I get something wrong. What is Round Robin? If you are not sure what Round Robin is, it’s basically an efficient …

[Uturunku]

If you are looking all-in-one solution than what about Dirtywave M8? It is twice cheaper than AR or OT. It is very logical and easy to use. It has 4 synth engines (macrosynth – port of MI Braids module with big mount of different types of synth engines, 4-op fm synth with different waveforms, wavesynth – 8-bit synth, hypersynth – 13 osc polyphonic synth), sampler – supports samples of any length (streams directly from sd) and can play them in a any directions including special OSC mod for using with wavetables files (sounds fat). You can easily slice samples, record samples via line in port or usb, you can use it as a midi/usb-midi sequencer with parameter locks. It can stream screen and sound via USB port. It has parameter and sound locks on each steps. Effects (chorus, delay, reverb) sounds very nice and also can be parameter locked. Multi-mode filter is a part of sound engine and it is available for all instruments (in OT filter is an effect and occupies 1 of 2 fx slots). Great little device for any genre of music. I highly recommend you to take a look at it.

[Fin25]

[Uturunku]

Screen is not big, right. But thanks to this, you can carry it with you in your pocket and create music anywhere (it has a battery inside). And width of its screen is not much smaller than the screen of modern phones that suit people (and wider than OT/AR screen). Also you have 2 options:

1. for studio work you can connect M8 to your computer and use browser or touchDesigner to mirror m8 screen.
2. in the recent OS 3.1.0 update new big font support was added to UI so now you can make UI elements much bigger than before if you need.

[Fin25]

I know, I was just taking the piss.

M8 looks really good.

[Adam9]

Kick, snare, dual vco, clap on the bottom row

Samples gallore on the middle row, bass, guitar, stabs, strings, vocals, drum / percussion loops

Hats and cymbals on the top row

The AR can definitely make full tracks as a groove box. That craps on any roland all in one I’ve ever used.

[Uturunku]

Rytm only:

LEM - AnalogRytm live @ FULLDOZER Fest. 27.09.14 / DADA Club, St.-Petersburg, Russia

Nicholas Lem - Live @ System 5.0 / 20.10.2018

[lesstalkmoredisco]

Nice write-up @pokk

@pokk

use one or both of the Control In’s for more LFO’s. You can even modulate the modulator. This make it sound similar from your standard LFO to env follower style or audio modulation.

Curious, what are you using into the CV inputs?

[pokk]

I have been using whatever sounds i have on track 1 & 2 quite a bit, just to add some filter shape or some random destination that sounds good, i just scroll through and pick the better sounding one normally. The cool thing is it isn’t super accurate sometimes so you get nice random movement happening without needed to program it, just dial it in.

I also tried the oscillators on Dual VCO, and just started playing about with samples recently which can be tricky but definitely unique.

[anthonynordge]

@cogsy

As far as the DVCO’s, they can’t play high notes.

how high are we talking? cant go up 2 octaves from c3?

@cogsy

As far as tracking, the FM is analog, so don’t expect the pitch to track well over a large range. Meaning a fourth or fifth may not be exact, so it may sound out of tune if played with other melodic elements.

this sounds even more exciting love detuned stuff this should be no problem

[anthonynordge]

@min0nim

Many, many of us have bought the OT, only to sell it (and then buy it again). If you’re looking for Ableton in a box, it can do that…but it’s not where its strengths are. It can be overwhelming for a first timer. It’s an older box, any people get disappointed by the effects and time stretch qualities, until they understand their place and limitations.

yes thats my concern buying new gear and selling it after a short period of time which would be the OT cause of complexity and menu diving and it would be overwhelming, having in mind that i have 0 experience with gear only ableton, my friend lent me an RD9 drum machine a while back, and i was confused with all the patterns/kits/song and all of that stuff was a bit hard to understand so i guess youre right with the rytm route

@min0nim

The Rytm is probably the perfect techno all in one box. Don’t get hung up on synthesis vs samples. It takes time to get any of the synths sounding great. Lots of people use it exclusively with samples, and samples sound brilliant through Rytm. It will also work better with Ableton until you can figure out if you want/need any external effects boxes (e.g. a co presser is pretty much essential for techno), and all the individual outs will help you here too.

The Rytm is a much more complete instrument than the OT, and when you get the hang of it will allow you to combine an OT in the future in natural and exciting ways.

yeah i was thinking low of its sampling duties, but i can always use single wave cycle samples on other pads other than the dvco for higher pitches or for more variation so the so the rytm feels more complete as you said, it can sample, use samples, synthesize, and has drums pretty much everything that i need in a box other than fx which it has

thank you:D

[anthonynordge]

@Sleepyhead

The dvco’s have a special sound, but are very quirky as well (weird tracking sometimes etc). They sound unlike any other synth I’ve ever used, someone on this forum once described em as having a ‘hairy’ sound, which for whatever reason sounds right to me haha.

that sounds right to me hahaha

@Sleepyhead

I often mix the dvco with some single cycle waveform synth (you can mix synth/sample on a single voice on the AR. The single cycle sample synths sound amazing going through all the AR’s analog circuitry, so the dvco’s are a nice bonus, but the single cycles got you covered for amazing synth sounds without tracking issues. All the needed parameters are there (filter env, amp env, drive, fx etc).

this is giving me an orgasm hahahaha the ability to add single cycle waveforms like sine waves or any waves to the dvco running through some analog crisp, yum.

@Sleepyhead

The AR has some standard per track insert fx (analog filter, drive, one lfo) and some global send fx (delay, reverb). Then there’s also a master comp and distortion. They sound great, but there’s limited options on all of em.

yeah its much limited than the OT as you described, damn kinda wish it had more FX. but limitation is great right? makes you come with ideas and shapes that really sharpens your craft, so ill take it!

@Sleepyhead

between AR and OT I agree with @min0nim: get a Rytm. But I’d still advice you to look into the ST and DT as well. They are serious machines which make the step up to an AR easy. The OT has kind of a different dna then these others, so it will be easier to learn coming from the other machines, but this will still not be a walk in the park haha.

yeah i think im going with AR, maybe OT in the future but i dont want the severe complexity for a newbie to gear to kill my creativity if im going with the OT

thanks for chiming in :D!

[anthonynordge]

@pokk

Good luck on your journey.

thanks!

@pokk

I think it’s worth pointing out that the Rytm isn’t a drum machine, more a drum computer, which might seem splitting hairs but i think this is why I struggled with my AR for so many years. It has a lot of dna taken from classic Roland gear but unlike that Roland gear it feels very different, in that it isn’t as immediate, nor sounding as good out of the box. Most drum machines are pretty preset heavy and focus around dialled in sounds that work super well together or have huge sweet spots. I found i definitely have to get the AR setup to use it in certain ways to get better results, probably why projects and kits are popular as a useful shortcut. Once you do that though it sounds pretty damn good.

hmmmmm thats interesting, thats why maybe people say they dont like how the AR sounds? so it needs some sharpening and morphing into your liking and it wont sound as nice as other instruments from the get go,

@pokk

The videos cover a range of experimental sounds, approaches that may be useful for you to help you decide your direction to create and free projects to try out, some Google Sheet to help with setting up Keyboard tracking, which for me having grown up around techno since the 90’s, super important. I think this comes from using the SH101 so much, it’s just so useful, and the Rytm doesn’t do that out of the box, but you can set it up pretty quickly and it makes a huge difference to me.

wow thank you so much! ive come across your videos on youtube searching for some rytm dvco display and found your vids really cool, especially the legendary SH101 one my favorite artists use that beautiful synth, i think plenty of techno peeps also, but worth mentioning the legendary Regis and Sleeparchive absolute bombardism , thank you so much for sharing! i will be watching your vids when i get my machine haha

@pokk

You also mention the 909, and there is a way you can do round-robin style with samples using the LFO, which does make 909/808 samples work really well. I have posted how-tos and samples elsewhere on this forum and my Github, along with AR projects most days.

The other thing is although the AR has one LFO internal per track, you can set it up to use a track as an LFO or modulator and then use one or both of the Control In’s for more LFO’s. You can even modulate the modulator. This make it sound similar from your standard LFO to env follower style or audio modulation.

thank you so much for chiming in! i will be following you around on youtube and checking out your other links, it’ll help me a lot, and i appreciate your kindness to help

[anthonynordge]

@Uturunku

If you are looking all-in-one solution than what about Dirtywave M8? It is twice cheaper than AR or OT. It is very logical and easy to use. It has 4 synth engines (macrosynth – port of MI Braids module with big mount of different types of synth engines, 4-op fm synth with different waveforms, wavesynth – 8-bit synth, hypersynth – 13 osc polyphonic synth), sampler – supports samples of any length (streams directly from sd) and can play them in a any directions including special OSC mod for using with wavetables files (sounds fat). You can easily slice samples, record samples via line in port or usb, you can use it as a midi/usb-midi sequencer with parameter locks. It can stream screen and sound via USB port. It has parameter and sound locks on each steps. Effects (chorus, delay, reverb) sounds very nice and also can be parameter locked. Multi-mode filter is a part of sound engine and it is available for all instruments (in OT filter is an effect and occupies 1 of 2 fx slots). Great little device for any genre of music. I highly recommend you to take a look at it.

thanks for the recommendation, this seems like a capable box i will look more into it! . but i wanted something of elektron nature to get the handle of it and in the future incorporating it into my setup cause i wanna expand later with a modular rig, and thought maybe elektron is the way. and with the rytm i can just rest with my drum duties and build a nice focused modular, and not worry about drums and all that stuff

use the AR as a groovebox now :D! and then later maybe use it as a drum machine only when i expand with the other gear

but thanks for recommending!!