Roland SP-404 Mk2 (Part 1)

[djst]

@8bitBarry

The MPC is so musical. Where Akai nailed it is that you feel like a musician when you use it, not a programmer! You become a drummer, regardless of whether you can drum, or even have any rhythm and that connects to your soul - that’s hard to beat.

I agree. It seems sometimes that people who haven’t used an MPC bash it for its relatively more complex workflow compared to the more limited Digitakt, but the reality is that it’s very immediate and encourages you to use your ear, ‘play’ your notes live using Dub Record and ‘feel’ the groove - as opposed to programming it on the DT and being delightfully surprised when making a programming mistake (I love the DT for that, for the record!).

@8bitBarry

Im excited because the SP404mk2 should be the one. All the wonderful musical features of the MPC (mute groups, chopping) but with those fabulous musical effects. And I can sit on the train with it?!

That last part is definitely an attraction for me, its portability. But “all the musical features of the MPC” is too much of a stretch for me. You lack all of the amazing synths so you can forget about basslines, pad chords, arps, lead melodies etc unless you’re prepared to go really deep with sampling other people’s music and/or carefully overdub and resample a pattern until you’ve created your chords or melodies. That part seem like an even more complex task than programming in chords on the Digitone and it makes me wonder if it’s even possible to create certain genres of music on the SP-404. It seems it can be acceptable for heavy samples based hip hop type of music, but for anything close to synth based electronic music, it’s a rather crippled experience where the MPC is heads and shoulders above it. My 2 cents here obviously.

[DimensionsTomorrow]

You do realize that tons of tracks made on the SP have been released commercially, right?

Like this stuff:

Donuts (album)

Or these tracks:

https://medium.com/micro-chop/i-dont-remember-the-samples-i-use-hell-no-the-story-of-madvillainy-e6b378d4689c

Just to name a couple famous examples.

[djst]

@DimensionsTomorrow

You do realize that tons of tracks made on the SP have been released commercially, right?

You’re kind of proving my point with those music genres that are heavily samples based and lack clear melodies (other than the sampled riffs, chords etc). So yeah, it still makes me wonder if the SP-404 isn’t very difficult to make music on for other genres. I have yet to hear examples of any other type of music that were made primarily using a 404, like electronica, techno, trance, etc.

Regarding commercial releases, this wasn’t really my point either. While I haven’t heard of J Dilla before (I’m not into hip hop, sorry), I’m sure there are examples of all sorts of musicians who made music on surprisingly simple tools (Björk would be another example in the early days) and were successful. But I’d be surprised if even J Dilla just went about making the full songs and sent them to mastering from a 2-channel stereo mix. There’s still a pretty wide range from “I don’t give a f*ck about mixing” to “I need every sound to be carefully separated into stems for mixing and mastering” and I’d guess that J Dilla, Madvillainy are not at the very far end of that spectrum either.

[djst]

To reiterate, my points were

1. that the SP-404 seems very difficult to make music on unless they’re within a very specific range of genres (e.g. hiphop and similar), and
2. that the SP-404 seems to make it very hard to keep mixes clean if you really embrace its resampling workflow. It seems to be tailored towards people who would rather just have fun making music rather than those who are also interested in learning how to get that extra “pop” in their mixes, because if you do take care to keep things separated, you sort of lose some of the fun of the SP workflow that it was designed for.

To me, it’s analogue of comparing against someone who just enjoys photography and taking photos, vs someone who deliberately chooses a very high-end camera with high dynamic range so they can squeeze out the most out of a photo in post-production by retaining the RAW image information. Both sides of that spectrum can turn into amazingly successful artists/photographers so there’s no right or wrong here, except that, arguably, those on the RAW image camp have an upper edge when it comes to their likeliness of breaking through the noise.

[Otto-Otosan]

I’ve got to echo a lot of what’s been said recently in this thread about fatherhood and music making. At the stage I’m in now (one toddler and another on the way), I have limited time and space to be making music. Not only that, what I use needs to have some level of durability to standup to a child getting hold of it (or playing along with me).

With that said, the OP-1 I had was too fragile (and limited) for my liking, both in the sounds it produced and in the workflow. While the DT had a more reliable workflow, the many restrictions on sampling and having to work within the bounds of the step sequencers felt too constraining. In comes the SP-404SX to supplement and I found it to be a more fun and immediate sampler. However, the boneheaded restrictions and limitations on it made for quick and enjoyable but very sloppy tunes. By the end I had songs I enjoyed making but had very annoying timing issues baked in.

As others have stated, the MPC Live was the solution to it all and I’ve been able to make whatever music I want, without limitation, and can refine it to the degree I choose. However, I still find myself using the SP more for spur of the moment playing. It’s also prime for travel, being rugged and small. In all honesty, the MPC can be frustrating at times too. So many different pages and settings that if I’m not careful, I can spend too much time trouble shooting than playing music.

This SP-404MK2 looks to solve all the gripes I have with the SX and I anticipate it becoming my go to instrument over the MPC.

[DimensionsTomorrow]

I subscribe more to the Gabriel Roth school of music. Shitty is pretty. Here’s a fun read for you.

A rant about obsessive gearlust v informed purchases

With all that talk of funk and avoiding gear lust, I think this belongs here. One of my favorite rants ever. Long live Gabriel Roth. ————— Shitty Is Pretty: Anatomy of a Heavy Funk 45 (part 1) by Gabriel Roth (from Big Daddy Magazine, years ago) There are many beautiful animals in the forest, but none is quite as ferocious as the mighty Heavy Funk 45. In the interest of preserving this rare and endangered species, I have written this step-by-step guide of how to produce your own. This is by …

[Otto-Otosan]

I think I get what you’re saying, but what is stopping someone from sampling any synth line into the SP on different pads and triggering them whenever you want. I’ve even used the SX to sample different synth lines on pads, followed by triggering them with the step sequencer to get a song together. The most cumbersome part of that workflow is getting the start and end points right. The MK2 looks to solve that.

[djst]

@Otto-Otosan

With that said, the OP-1 I had was too fragile (and limited) for my liking, both in the sounds it produced and in the workflow. While the DT had a more reliable workflow, the many restrictions on sampling and having to work within the bounds of the step sequencers felt too constraining. In comes the SP-404SX to supplement and I found it to be a more fun and immediate sampler. However, the boneheaded restrictions and limitations on it made for quick and enjoyable but very sloppy tunes. By the end I had songs I enjoyed making but had very annoying timing issues baked in.

This is what makes me stay in this thread - there’s something seemingly enjoyable about the SP-404 workflow. What do/did you think was fun with it? That said, those annoying timing issues baked in is a big part of my concern with it. I guess you can quantize recordings into the sequencer so it should theoretically not be an issue with the mk2.

@Otto-Otosan

As others have stated, the MPC Live was the solution to it all and I’ve been able to make whatever music I want, without limitation, and can refine it to the degree I choose. However, I still find myself using the SP more for spur of the moment playing. It’s also prime for travel, being rugged and small. In all honesty, the MPC can be frustrating at times too. So many different pages and settings that if I’m not careful, I can spend too much time trouble shooting than playing music.

This SP-404MK2 looks to solve all the gripes I have with the SX and I anticipate it becoming my go to instrument over the MPC.

The “to the degree I choose” is a key point for me with the MPC: you can record an idea as quickly as you want, and choose to fine-tune later if you end up liking the beat.

That said, I fully agree about the lack of portability. My MPC One is something I carry around the house at best, always with the power brick dangling behind me. It’s not ideal and something like the SP-404 size with a built-in rechargeable battery that could be powered through the usb-c port would have been perfect. I guess if someone made a li-ion battery pack the size of the 6-AA compartment of the SP-404, it would be nearly ideal.

I’d be curious about the gripes with the SX that you think the mk2 solves, and, given the conversation above, I’d also be very curious about what kind of music (genres) you are making.

[djst]

Bookmarked, will give it a read later, but I think I get where you place yourself in the spectrum I talked about earlier.

[Otto-Otosan]

@djst

This is what makes me stay in this thread - there’s something seemingly enjoyable about the SP-404 workflow. What do/did you think was fun with it?

For me, it’s the immediacy of the pads and effects. You put audio on a pad, select an effect and you’re off making music. Need more audio (drums, synth, etc.)? Just put it on another pad. With the MPC there’s the different program types, browsing, navigating through pages and settings. It’s great if you need all of that but when you just want to sit down and make music, the SP has it beat in my opinion. I often enjoy starting on the SP and then if I like an idea transferring it over to the MPC.

I’d be curious about the gripes with the SX that you think the mk2 solves, and, given the conversation above, I’d also be very curious about what kind of music (genres) you are making.

My main issues solved are

1. Recording line in while audio is playing on the SP. I can now finally have a drum track playing while recording a synth line in with the device itself!
2. Improved chopping with an envelope. The old way was tedious at best.
3. Being able to use more than 1 effect at a time. I’m often hesitant to resample too many effects, in case I regret it. Now I should be able to use a few without doing that immediately.
4. The midi in and out makes the MK2 more friendly to use with the MPC or computer.

Those are just the big ones I can think of right now. As for genre, I mainly make sample based hip hop or my own blend of techno (not sure the exact genre ). I just enjoy playing what resonates with me and gets me dancing!

From what I’ve read in your posts though, it sounds like the MPC is the instrument for you. There are some definite workflow methods that are unique to the SP (even in the MK2) that some will find frustrating for their music making methods.

[djst]

@Otto-Otosan

For me, it’s the immediacy of the pads and effects. You put audio on a pad, select an effect and you’re off making music. Need more audio (drums, synth, etc.)? Just put it on another pad. With the MPC there’s the different program types, browsing, navigating through pages and settings. It’s great if you need all of that but when you just want to sit down and make music, the SP has it beat in my opinion. I often enjoy starting on the SP and then if I like an idea transferring it over to the MPC.

I agree that the MPC requires a bit of tapping and clicking to set the program up, no doubt. But what I don’t really understand regarding the SP-404 is the “you put audio on a pad, select an effect and you’re off making music” part - where are you finding that audio unless it’s a sample from another song? You say “recording line in while audio is playing on the SP” and I interpret that as you being used to working with other hardware and basically using another synth to play the melody and recording that into the SP-404. If that’s the case, isn’t that effectively a lot of work too? I mean, how would you go about making a song sketch from scratch on the SP-404 on the train etc unless you’ve done all that prep work of recording the melody and bass lines prior to boarding the train? For hip hop, I can sort of understand it and I’d assume you sample using your phone from anywhere, but for techno/electronica, I just don’t see how it would work in practice. Super curious though!

@Otto-Otosan

From what I’ve read in your posts though, it sounds like the MPC is the instrument for you. There are some definite workflow methods that are unique to the SP (even in the MK2) that some will find frustrating for their music making methods.

I do think it is, for the most part. The only thing I really miss is the portability. In all honesty, the SP-404 isn’t exactly super portable either, but it’s at least a lot more portable than the MPC One.

[Artsutanav]

@djst

but for techno/electronica, I just don’t see how it would work in practice. Super curious though!

I’ll be testing that when I get mine.

I don’t make Hip Hop at all, but maybe you wouldn’t consider what I do as techno either.

We shall see.

[40below]

madlib sent erykah badu a beat for one of her albums not only as a stereo two track but as an mp3. and it got used

[8bitBarry]

@djst

To reiterate, my points were

1. that the SP-404 seems very difficult to make music on unless they’re within a very specific range of genres (e.g. hiphop and similar), and
2. that the SP-404 seems to make it very hard to keep mixes clean if you really embrace its resampling workflow. It seems to be tailored towards people who would rather just have fun making music rather than those who are also interested in learning how to get that extra “pop” in their mixes, because if you do take care to keep things separated, you sort of lose some of the fun of the SP workflow that it was designed for.

I agree with you here - as a side note I also use the SP404a as a way of punching sound sources in a mix. I found that putting my MPC 2500 master outputs through the SP compressor for dirtying things up, was such a great way of adding its unique character. I often run the SP as an Aux 1 effects send and try it out on all manner of units / send sounds from Ableton through it…

[sadvillain]

https://youtu.be/pxBvg6QSZZw
This whole album was completely on the 303.
Panda Bear and the rest of AC use 303/404s pretty extensively both in the studio and live. I wouldn’t exactly call them hip hop, no?

[8bitBarry]

@Otto-Otosan

This SP-404MK2 looks to solve all the gripes I have with the SX and I anticipate it becoming my go to instrument over the MPC.

Agreed - it’s like a hybrid MPC with masses of effects to enjoy. My MPC2500 is a delight and JJOS makes it faster in these modern times, but having lots of modern updates the the mk2, and a proper waveform screen, battery power, huge storage, mute groups, etc for creating beats etc, but then all the usual toys for DJing, has to make this my go-to box.

The 10 outs of the MPC2500 still makes it a hell of a studio machine…

[Python]

I was about to mention panda bear/animal collective, very good example. I would agree with some opinions voiced here, that the SP-404 work flow is not suited for all genres of music. If you want to make music and have surgical control over every element all the time, it’s probably not for you. However, I think it’s generally very underestimated today, that you can go very far and achieve great results by just carefully choosing the right elements to go together in a song (e.g. frequency range, rhythm etc). It’s probably mentioned to death that bands in the 60s had very few tracks to work with and achieved great sounding music by mixing down multiple instruments on a single track to free up some space on another track. So I would say that the production on a great piece of music matters far less or can even add to its appeal, as long as the music is great. Mediocre music will still be mediocre even if the production quality is top notch.

[unflattered]

Amen.

[Buska]

You know what’s funny… the SP groups I follow on FB are arguing about how this new SP gives too many options and will ruin the creative limitations of the old 404SX.

Proving once again… you cannot please everyone…

[alspacka]

I’m hoping the Mk2 will work well as an all-purpose guitar noodling box. A very portable recorder with amp sims and the ability to play in simple bass and percussion backing tracks sounds great.