tl;dr this looks great but hasn't been working as expected for me, trying to figure out if it's bugged or I'm just being dumb
They’ve introduced a new way of patching controls to gen~ type devices where instead of using a bunch of patch cables and scale/prepend objects you can just go into the inspector or the action menu, select the parameter you want and it makes these connections automatically, including that you can see the value of the parameter on the dial in the max device, rather than just 0-1. And according to the documentation it is supposed to be bidirectional so changes you make on the plugin will be reflected in the device and from there on Push.
But, this was just extended to VSTs in Max 9.0.5 and I think it might still be kinda bugged. Or maybe I’m being dumb and/or expecting it to work in a way that it it isn’t intended to. But either way, I can get dials sending to the vst using this method pretty reliably, and the dial displays the plugin value rather than just 0-1.
Bidirectional control to reflect changes made in the plugin window hasn’t been working reliably, and I haven’t been able to figure out a way to get Push to display the plugin value even though it’s appearing in the max device, without doing all the same patching that was needed in Max 8. Plus I haven’t been able to get live.tabs controls working as expected even just sending to the plugin so have been patching manually. And I’ve been having a bunch of weird crashes editing and saving patches set up in this way.
I’ve asked on their discord and board to see if anyone has any insights, will report back if I get further along. All that said, I used this to patch up Aalto and it’s been pretty transformative - feels like it’s become a native Live/Push device - and not much more time consuming or difficult than doing it in Bitwig or PrEditor, even allowing for the limitations of one way control.
And related - yeah, I tend to only focus on Push when jamming even in controller mode, so the placement as a separate point of focus away from my monitor really works. It feels like it breaks the flow when I have to go to the mouse and keyboard to patch a plugin etc. So the more I can comprehensively map to Push the better, even if it involves blundering around in Max. That said, I do have other sessions where I’m mainly building racks or putting together templates to go jam with, in which case the monitor will tend to be the focus.
So you have Aalto totally mapped to push and it’s not cryptic labeling or tough to figure out which knob does what? I’d love to see that if you ever get a chance to show some screen shots. That sounds amazing and rather promising for other synths.
Mixer. When I expand it to mix a drum rack, how do I return to the main rack that collapses it quickly. I have to select the first drum cell and then tab to the left. There’s gotta be a better way to do this. Thanks!
About halfway through with Aalto - just want to figure out if this new way of doing things can save me a bunch of time if I can help it before finishing it off. Further along with the Roland SH-101 plugin, which I mainly picked for proof of concept because I could use this one for the Tal version as a jumping off point and there’s fewer controls.
I’ve got these working bi-directionally so Push reflects changes made in the plugin and displaying the correct list items / values, still need to update some of the names, etc. But it’s not hard or even particularly time consuming. Just parking it for now because possibly the new method in Max 9 will potentially make it even easier and quicker. Also still have a few things to figure out in terms of standard patch housekeeping and stuff like accessing plugin presets from Push. Trying to minimise mouse and keyboard as far as possible.
But as of now I can just drop the max device from my user library in the same way as I would a native device and everything is mapped and ready to go without needing to look at the monitor. Probably would still only bother doing it for plugins where it makes a real difference over using a rack, but honestly even with a half-done version Aalto is feeling like a Buchla in Push.
Gotta use mouse and keyboard to patch the cables in Aalto, they’re not available as parameters. The sequencer is though, it depends a bit from plugin to plugin. Probably what I’ll do is set up presets - whether by recalling in the plugin if I can figure it out or just creating a bunch of devices if not - with standard patch cables set up in various ways. Probably some mousing is pretty unavoidable to, but even with just starting from the default patch it feels so much better once it’s mapped like this.
This stuff already worked in previous max versions, there are a bunch of free or commercial wrappers available. The Max 9 update has a new way of setting up controls that seems like should be a whole lot easier but it’s not quite been working as expected - could well turn out that the old method will still be the best way to do this.
Like I say, not hard to do yourself though - I’m finding it a great way to start going deeper in Max. I’d already built a few simple devices to solve particular problems and tweak how Push works in certain ways, but this has been more involved and I’ve learned a lot from spending a few evenings figuring it out, much more so than watching tutorials. Would definitely recommend giving it a go, there’s a video and some links further upthread. I feel like Push really comes into its own the more you customise it, and using Max opens up pretty much infinite possibilities.
Thanks so much for your detailed replies!
I asked in this forum because finding the best ways to control a DAW without touching the mouse does not seem to be a priority in most music production forums.
This has been quite the frustrating experience for me with many hours spent making controller scripts or creating NKS files…
Now I’m spending half an hour each evening on my first wrapper with the old method and honestly it’s fun. First thing I want to achieve for my favourite plugins is that the device GUI can be easily opened/closed from Push. [live.text] then [sel 1 0] and the corresponding messages seems to work just fine Let’s see how this works when added to live.banks…
It’ll definitely give you the tools to get loops up and running. I like the overall clip-based workflow, I love that clips can be any length at almost any resolution, and the instruments/effects are beyond fantastic — especially if you have Live Suite. I’ve also come to adore MPE, and thanks to the audio and MIDI interfaces, Push is literally at the centre of all my music-making.
There are a few things to consider, though. Firstly, the workflow is still very dependent on desktop Live as of the 12.2 beta. They’re adding features regularly and IMO Push Standalone gives you access to nearly everything you need to get an idea from 0 - 75%, but from there you really need to move to set to your desktop. The good news is that moving a set is pretty painless, but it’s still something to consider.
Secondly, if you’re mostly interested in unwinding and building loops after work but don’t mind having a hybrid DAW/Standalone workflow, the Ableton Move might be worth considering. It’s a lot cheaper, a lot faster, and a lot easier to play on your lap. And if you’re hoping to keep the computer out of the picture as much as possible, there are faster workflows like the Digitakt or Syntakt; more experimental workflows like the OP-XY or OP-1 Field; and more complete in-the-box workflows like the current MPC range.
Edit: regarding evolving loops over time, the workflow is very good. You can create a one-bar clip, double the length and add variations, duplicate the clip and add automation, and on and on. It’s also very easy to resample your session and chop it up, or bounce MIDI clips to audio for further manipulation.
Another attempt at playing the pads. Every time I play it, I’m reminded of how awesome those MPE pads are. Just really wish the Push 3 wasn’t so big and bulky or it’d probably have a permanent place on my desktop.
Everyone’s different, but it definitely works for me. I like to have a few sequencers or devices like Fors Dyad that I can randomise and then start improvising over it. Or use templates that are designed to be played in particular ways - it does really reward doing prep in advance. But I feel like both Push and Move are instruments that are designed to be played rather than programmed.
I’ve been using the Iftah Performer device mapped to BPM set to the range I’m working in with a slew value to taste, I usually use 2 beats. Then a Variation device from the same pack. Use the Performer to set the BPM, create a Variation, name it, then create a dummy clip with the same name e.g. 120BPM. When you launch a clip with the same name as the variation anywhere in the set, it’ll trigger the tempo change to happen over the specified time.
Probably other ways this could have been done and maybe the new native way will be better for doing fine per scene changes. And possibly not ideal for what you’re going for if I understand it correctly. For me I’m mainly thinking of jamming in realtime where I want to avoid a jump in BPM so the slew option is the big advantage. I use it to create templates with a range of different BPM changes I can trigger on the fly by hitting a clip, but in standalone it’d probably be better to just use clip automation instead. Other big limitation is that the knob only shows from 0-100 on Push rather than the BPM value, one of the main downers with the Performer device.
So I wasn’t crazy. they updated the Expressive Chords pack. Now it shows properly in my browser.
I’m assuming all you lucky mofos have Suite
It wasn’t appearing in Standard.
Has anyone had midi issues? Trying to send midi notes and transport from Digitone II to Push 3 SA (with Live 11 Suite mind you) but it’s not receiving anything, despite having what seems to be all the right settings.
Fwiw I also thought I was going crazy because I can’t see the new autofilter in Live. It’s there in standalone, but when I load autofilter from Audio Effects it loads the legacy version. Only way I’ve found of getting it in the DAW is to go down into packs and drop in one of the new presets - until then I thought it was going to have to be a first for loading to a set in standalone and saving then transferring to Live to open it.
DJ filter here is perfect for live jamming where you just want to a little control over broad strokes. I’d spent a while building a rack to do a similar thing with a bandpass sweep but was never quite happy with it and had meant to go back and tweak, now there’s no need.
While I’m thinking about the performance pack, as above it has some limitations but don’t sleep on the variations device. Can do the Elektron thing of picking a save point using stash, go nuts on the parameters then recall to bring the device or track or even entire set back to where you started from.
Let’s see how this works when added to live.banks…
