PrePurchase Inquiry: Pickup Machines -- Will this work?

Anarchosyn · 2015-04-04T02:43:49.000Z

I’m looking to get an Octatrack to add a little dynamic to my live set-up, which currently consists of a flakey, non-gig worthy PC laptop and a Eurorack modular.

I’m looking to effectively do something along the lines of this video (Tim Exile Youtube clip): https://youtu.be/UGT1tZT9C1o

In the first 20 seconds, Tim samples his voice twice, creating rhythms, and then drops midi drums over top.

If I understand the Octatrack correctly (I’m reading both the manual, and Merlin’s guide), I could establish a master and slave pick-up machine to accomplish this - the master setting the system’s tempo, and the slave being auto stretched (if need be) to accommodate any timing errors. Then, with the tempo now set automatically by the master to my first vocal sample (again, lets just imagine I’m doing what Tim did above for the two pick-up machines), I could load pre-recorded drum loops or sample chain beats to improvisationally play live, yeah?

I presume this all to be accurate, but what prompted this post is a further question:

Can I seamlessly migrate the pickup machine audio into another track via resampling, and then cut-up / mutilate the sample to my hearts content, freeing up the now redundant pickup machine to record new data (from my Eurorack, or whatever)? In essence, create a cyclic workflow where I sample into a pickup machine, move that over to another track for intensive edits, and then repeat? I presume the pickup machines are effectively static, but resampling would allow me to get around that, yes?

Mind you, I’m not trying to emulate Tim’s improve machine in full. I use Tim’s work merely as an expedient example of the kind of flexibility I’d like to have in starting my performances (sample from the immediate – crowd or myself – and then start cutting that up / mangling it live and improvisationally).

What really prompted this post was another thread, located here: Pickup machines - who is using them?, where forum regulars discussed the apathetic response people had to the pickup machine’s inclusion. It made me wonder if they weren’t as flexible as I had hoped, in either timing or whatever.

Thanks for reading. :).

avantronica · 2015-04-04T09:20:01.000Z

I think you’re good to go with that approach. There’s enough flexibility with the OT in general to achieve a workflow like that through various approaches. Pickup machines are often commented upon, not just by me, as being seemingly temperamental but it’s just that they are a little less polished than the rest of the machines. I think it sounds like you’ll be able to work your way through the learning curve to get it to do your bidding. First and foremost imho, the OT should be sampling on every power up, but there’s so much that can be done with already captured material and there’s a high degree of performability and controlled chaos to keep the improvs fresh as a user. Check out the more recent PU machine threads where there’s more folks embracing them and pushing them quite far. If you buy well secondhand it’s a no/low risk decision, but i imagine you won’t look back if you get properly under the hood and see what it can do

OHEXOH · 2015-04-04T10:07:08.000Z

You can do all that without breaking a sweat

reeloy · 2015-04-04T10:28:17.000Z

…since there is no alternative to the ot all in all and anyway for all that u wanna do, i say welcome to club…sooner or later…

but to call the pick up machines not that polished as most of the rest of the ot, is a pretty friendly way to describe the state of mess they’re still in at this point…

and without beeakin in sweat…?..well, that’s nothing but wet promo dreams…

Anarchosyn · 2015-04-04T17:12:09.000Z

""reeloy"":

…since there is no alternative to the ot all in all and anyway for all that u wanna do, i say welcome to club…sooner or later…

but to call the pick up machines not that polished as most of the rest of the ot, is a pretty friendly way to describe the state of mess they’re still in at this point…

and without beeakin in sweat…?..well, that’s nothing but wet promo dreams…

So if “not that polished” is overly euphemistic, how would you describe them? I mean, in detail (what is wrong with them?).

As to alternatives, I could – with enough pain and suffering (and time) – accomplish something akin to my needs in a bespoke Reaktor or Max/MSP design, but I’m not sure I want to beat my head against that wall just yet.

reeloy · 2015-04-04T18:10:21.000Z

…well, you gonna bump your head either way…

but with the ot you come sooner or later to a point of cool confidence, perfomring with a real instruemnt if it’s own…

with a reactor or max msp patch the bumper feeling never leaves u…

but some of the classic looper max/ableton patches do a really good job and might be more tight on for your needs…

the realtime sampling capabilities of the ot really need quite some practice…
and it takes time to get the comfort of overviewing what’s going on…

and pick up machines are nowhere near to what average loopers can offer yet…

but check on pick up machines in the search function and get your own opinion where it’s at…

but keep in mind, that the ot is a beast for stage performance and if ur prepared, it can take u anywhere…

Anarchosyn · 2015-04-04T21:33:25.000Z

Solid.

That reminds me, though a bit off topic, how likely are more features coming down the pique? Elektron is kind of a new company, so we haven’t really gotten to see their product support vision really solidified. Do the older machines still get new additions? (and should that even be a litmus, even if not, because the Octatrack might be in more need then anything else).

Perhaps the only thing holding me back from a purchase (aside from money and a desire for more Eurorack modules), is the question of whether a Octatrack Mk2 is around the corner.

Does Elektron communicate development plans to the community, even in passing (e.g. “we’re planning feature X, Y and Z… no promises”)?

Granted, even if no more updates came down this would be an impressive machine, but it sounds like many are optimistic more is to come. I’m just curious if that is based on anything concrete.

Rusty · 2015-04-04T22:23:57.000Z

""Anarchosyn"":

That reminds me, though a bit off topic, how likely are more features coming down the pique?

Octatrack has not had a proper update in over a year and a half now. There have been two minor updates / bug fixes (obviously critical if it affects you) at the tail end of last year.

The last OS update v1.25E, fixed a bug with Flex machines, and exposed/transferred the diagnostic routine for the crossfader positioning/tracking. (i.e. existing code was copy/pasted)

I have my own views and theories regarding a lot of stuff and things, but yeah.

""Anarchosyn"":

Elektron is kind of a new company, so we haven’t really gotten to see their product support vision really solidified.

They’ve beeen around for 17 years now, so hardly a ‘new’ company, especially in the context of electronic musical instruments.

I would say that they had built themselves a good reputation for product support and vision on the back of the MachineDrum and MonoMachine…

""Anarchosyn"":

Do the older machines still get new additions? (and should that even be a litmus, even if not, because the Octatrack might be in more need then anything else).

No, not really, and I don’t think the MD/MM can be used as a litmus. But as above, but the MachineDrum and MonoMachine are mature stable instruments, and got that way thanks to two key items.

Inital release was not a beta release. Beta testing was done with a limited pool of users prior to mass release.
Stable base that was iterated over time.

""Anarchosyn"":

Perhaps the only thing holding me back from a purchase (aside from money and a desire for more Eurorack modules), is the question of whether a Octatrack Mk2 is around the corner.

I doubt it personally, for well, reasons.

""Anarchosyn"":

Does Elektron communicate development plans to the community, even in passing (e.g. “we’re planning feature X, Y and Z… no promises”)?

Yes, no, maybe. Regardless, only ever buy an Elektron based on what it can do now, I guess that applies to everything.

Generally no, as they like to keep quiet. Even if yes, doesn’t matter, as it doesn’t exist, and it wouldn’t be the first time that they announce something and don’t release it, let it quietly disappear / take ages to implement.

Their current business strategy revolves around getting units/OS to a “useable” state, then releasing them for mass beta testing, and releasing existing functionality later on, so people think that it is “free” and that they are awesome (A4 Poly mode / A4 +Drive); similar tactic to hw Access constantly push out updates to their Virii.

The thing is, there are a lot of very smart heads around these parts, hello everyone /waves, who figure out smart ways to use the devices, and come up with ideas that they then leverage off.

Anarchosyn · 2015-04-05T00:04:46.000Z

""Rusty"":

I have my own views and theories regarding a lot of stuff and things, but yeah.

If I had the time and opportunity, I’d love to buy you a pint, give you a cigarette and listen to you extol those points.

""Rusty"":

They’ve beeen around for 17 years now, so hardly a ‘new’ company, especially in the context of electronic musical instruments.

True, but for many of those years they were a smaller, indie operation (more boutique, like the majority of Eurorack module producers). I remember when the Sidstation came out, and the impression I had was it was being designed by some dude in his basement. Certainly wasn’t anywhere near the professional presence they have now.

But this was just an aside…

""Rusty"":

I would say that they had built themselves a good reputation for product support and vision on the back of the MachineDrum and MonoMachine…

You sound like a man once bitten, now twice shy. I don’t mean this as an insult in any way, but rather as an observation; there is a pervasively cynical tone throughout this reply which speaks to a degree of disillusionment (of which I can only assume comes from your experiences with the Octatrack). I find this very interesting, especially since I believe I’ve stumbled across many contributions you’ve given to the community throughout this forum (I could be conflating you with another, depending on whether that avatar is used by anyone else, but I get the impression you’re a very knowledgeable and veteran member of the community).

Could you elaborate a bit? Were promises broken, or something to that degree? The beta test comments, both here and in other threads I’ve seen, speaks to a degree of trust now lost with Elektron – or at least product instability at launch. Is this the root of what I’m picking up?

Anyhoo, it isn’t lost on me that you didn’t explicitly tell me to look elsewhere, so you’re either aware your issues are subjective, or they’re still eclipsed by the end quality of the product. I just can’t shake this feeling you have a wealth of information in you that I’d find interesting.

Rusty · 2015-04-06T10:23:23.000Z

""Anarchosyn"":

If I had the time and opportunity, I’d love to buy you a pint, give you a cigarette and listen to you extol those points.

Such a well thought out reply deserves a well thought out reply, which I’ll get around to in a day or two, hectic weekend.

I also accept coffee and cookies.

darenager · 2015-04-06T11:26:32.000Z

I won’t be quite so diplomatic about my views on the pick-up machines, I feel they are clunky and badly implemented and seem that they were rushed to appease the looper market (the OT was billed as next level looper on launch, pickup machines were added a fair way after the OT appearing on the market)

If you have used most other loopers then pickup machines will appear to be quite counter intuitive, but more than this they do not operate in tandem - from a UI point of view with how the other machines in the OT work, totally different button presses to record into them for example, it seems like they were developed in a vacuum to the rest of the machine by someone else - though this is pure speculation on my part.

My experience with pickup machines goes something like this, OS gets updated with pickup machines, I tried them out, much head scratching, much forgetting that one wrong move and say bye to your loop(s), realization that the same thing can be achieved with other gear without any of the hassle, never used them since.

Now, this is not to say that the OT isn’t a great machine,and it certainly takes some beating as a hardware solution to playing/manipulating loops, but for use as a looper recorder actually the flex machines are much much better, but the pickup machines can suck it as far as I’m concerned. So I do not see the point of pickup machines at all, I’d rather the resources in the OS be used for something else.

YMMV, always ask the bill payers permission, caveat emptor, IMHO etc.

GovernorSilver · 2015-04-06T18:46:21.000Z

The forum software is a bit of a pain to use, especially for responding to long posts, so forgive me if I missed a question…

Can I seamlessly migrate the pickup machine audio into another track via resampling, and then cut-up / mutilate the sample to my hearts content, freeing up the now redundant pickup machine to record new data (from my Eurorack, or whatever)?

If I understand this question properly, one solution is:

Track 1 - Pickup Machine
Track 2 - Flex Machine, with its Sample Slot set to Track 1 Recorder Buffer

Use Track 2 to slice audio in the recorder buffer and play back the slices. One interesting thing about this approach is that the sound of Track 2 changes as you continue sampling into Track 1. OTOH, if you want to clear the Track 1 buffer to sample something else, that will silence Track 2 as well.

Another solution:

Track 1 - Pickup Machine
Track 2 - Flex Machine with SRC set to output of Track 1 (instead of Track 1’s recorder buffer).

With this approach you sample once from Track 1 into Track 2.

I presume the pickup machines are effectively static, but resampling would allow me to get around that, yes?

I’m not sure what you mean by “static”. The Octatrack has a Static Machine, which is completely different from a Pickup Machine or a Flex Machine. Merlin’s document explains the differences.

Pickup Machines will let you layer loops easily - until you run into bugs. I have found Master pickup machines to be reasonably stable, but everyone including myself has had issues with Slave pickup machines.

Flex Machines can also layer loops but take more work. This thread has some instruction on how to use Flex for looping:

How to use Flex machine for live looping Octatrack

Hi again! I am happy using Pickup machine as a live looper. Also without changing the tempo. With Flex machines there is a different story; After trying for a while I must admit I am not being able to use Flex machine as a live looper. I even do not manage to record anything with record triggers. I was watching a video were the guy recorded, and the Flex automatically played back triggers of the loop. Then he could do some really cool mangling stuff! Please anyone, can y…

Anarchosyn · 2015-04-07T08:04:55.000Z

""GovernorSilver"":

I presume the pickup machines are effectively static, but resampling would allow me to get around that, yes?

I’m not sure what you mean by “static”.

To to clarify, I meant that the loops can’t be cut up, or really manipulated like a sample in a flex machine (for example). I’m aware that “static” is also used as a machine specific terminology, my apologies for the confusion.

To be ultra clear, watch the https://youtu.be/9r38r3BIgew?t=28s from time stamp 0:28 - 1:02, and you’ll see Tim Exile explain his performance setup. In such, he shows off his ability to capture a loop, and then reloop the loop (and though he doesn’t call it out, he records the filter tweaks he did over the loops). In essence, I was saying “the pickup machines can’t do this (nods to Tim), for instance, right?”

[For some reason the quote below won’t show as a quote. Buggy forum software, eh?]

[b]Rusty Said:

“Such a well thought out reply deserves a well thought out reply, which I’ll get around to in a day or two, hectic weekend.”[/b]

Then I eagerly await when the elaborative mood strikes you.

I’ll be here.

[b]
darenager Said:

“I won’t be quite so diplomatic about my views on the pick-up machines”[/b]

… and I thank you. I appreciate your bluntness (especially when $1k of my money is on the line).

–

Thank you all for your contributions.

If anybody else feels like they’d like to lend additionally perspective, I welcome that as well.

GovernorSilver · 2015-04-07T15:46:35.000Z

""Anarchosyn"":

GovernorSilver:

I presume the pickup machines are effectively static, but resampling would allow me to get around that, yes?

I’m not sure what you mean by “static”.

To to clarify, I meant that the loops can’t be cut up, or really manipulated like a sample in a flex machine (for example). I’m aware that “static” is also used as a machine specific terminology, my apologies for the confusion.

To be ultra clear, watch the https://youtu.be/9r38r3BIgew?t=28s from time stamp 0:28 - 1:02, and you’ll see Tim Exile explain his performance setup. In such, he shows off his ability to capture a loop, and then reloop the loop (and though he doesn’t call it out, he records the filter tweaks he did over the loops). In essence, I was saying “the pickup machines can’t do this (nods to Tim), for instance, right?”

You are right, you cannot slice audio nor play back slices in a pickup machine track. The flex machine also gives you retrigger, RTIM, sample start, etc. params that are not in the pickup machine.

As you may have read somewhere, the first track to sample with a pickup machine gets the master pickup machine, and any additional tracks that sample with a pickup machine will get the slave pickup machines. The slaves are buggy, but you can work with them if you keep the recording times on them short, never touch the Pitch param on those machines, and never slave the Octatrack to external MIDI clock.

At any rate, to use the Octatrack as a simple looper would be a waste of your money as there are dedicated looper pedals with more recording time, more features, etc. for less money. The real fun is in the Flex machine - the Flex is the reason to buy an Octatrack. The Flex is what raises the Octatrack to a higher level of creative potential than looper pedals.

Keep in mind you can assign a flex machine’s “sample slot” to the recorder buffer of just about any track. You can also assign its input to the output of any track, or to the main out or the cue out. The inter-track audio routing capability gives you tons of possibilities. And don’t forget the 3 LFOs per track - they can be assigned to a large selection of track parameters, and you can also have LFO modulate another LFO.

Anarchosyn · 2015-04-07T18:49:00.000Z

What you see at the beginning of that Youtube link is exactly what I’m aiming for (sampling the outside world and then building those elements into on the fly tracks), but I’m not a looper in the traditional sense – I don’t just want a riff of notes to loop and loop and loop, played (for example) from a guitar. Rather, I want to sample that guitar, and quickly move (i.e. resample) that loop into another buffer that will then allow me to cut, reorder, pitch, and otherwise manipulate that guitar into a texture or a melodic line, or a gated hi hat, whatever.

The pickup machines seem ideal due to the tempo setting functionality of the master, but after getting the loop, I wouldn’t hesitate to resample it and then kill the source. Hearing the slaves don’t work without issue is saddening to read, but hopefully Elektron will tighten that up with future OS releases, yeah?

GovernorSilver · 2015-04-07T18:59:22.000Z

""Anarchosyn"":

I want to sample that guitar, and quickly move (i.e. resample) that loop into another buffer that will then allow me to cut, reorder, pitch, and otherwise manipulate that guitar into a texture or a melodic line, or a gated hi hat, whatever.

Just use a Flex Machine directly for that. You don’t need a Pickup Machine to do what you describe above.

Sample straight into a Flex Machine track, then do whatever you want within that track.

Then go to your next Flex Machine track to record your next part. Rinse and repeat.

One caveat: The slicing process is unfortunately not a one-click process. These are the following steps:

Open Audio Editor on the audio you want to slice, within the track playing the audio.
Do a Create Slice Grid.
Select number of slices
Select linear locks or random locks (this assigns locks to slices so you can trigger them from the sequencer - linear means slices are assigned in order, while random is random).

On my semi-ambient, quasi-loop based tracks, I get around this by building up loops in a pickup machine track, then quietly doing the slicing steps on a flex machine track while the loops play on the pickup machine track - so the listener doesn’t hear an obvious interruption in my playing.

There are other audio slicing shortcuts like creating the slice grid and/or assigning the locks beforehand.

Anarchosyn · 2015-04-08T00:07:26.000Z

[quote=“” GovernorSilver""]

[quote=“Anarchosyn”]I want to sample that guitar, and quickly move (i.e. resample) that loop into another buffer that will then allow me to cut, reorder, pitch, and otherwise manipulate that guitar into a texture or a melodic line, or a gated hi hat, whatever.
[/quote]

Just use a Flex Machine directly for that. You don’t need a Pickup Machine to do what you describe above.[/quote]

Except a Flex Machine wouldn’t automatically tempo adjust the Octatrack to the original tempo of the source material, would it (if so, I’m in 100% agreement)? Would it auto loop it as well (meaning would start playing immediately)? That I’m unsure of as well.

GovernorSilver · 2015-04-08T13:51:57.000Z

""Anarchosyn"":

[quote=" GovernorSilver"][quote=“Anarchosyn”]I want to sample that guitar, and quickly move (i.e. resample) that loop into another buffer that will then allow me to cut, reorder, pitch, and otherwise manipulate that guitar into a texture or a melodic line, or a gated hi hat, whatever.

Just use a Flex Machine directly for that. You don’t need a Pickup Machine to do what you describe above.[/quote]

Except a Flex Machine wouldn’t automatically tempo adjust the Octatrack to the original tempo of the source material, would it (if so, I’m in 100% agreement)? Would it auto loop it as well (meaning would start playing immediately)? That I’m unsure of as well.

[/quote]
Ah, sorry, I missed the bit about you wanting the sequencer BPM to automatically be set to the BPM of the source material. Yes, the pickup machine is the only one that will automatically reset the sequencer BPM to the sampled audio BPM. The flex machine has BPM detection as well, but you have to open its Audio Editor to see what BPM it guessed from the source, and it won’t change the sequencer BPM automatically.

Yes, you can do what you want, as stated above, with the Octatrack - sample with pickup machine track, use flex machine track to do stuff to the audio directly in the pickup machine track’s recording buffer, or just sample from pickup machine output into its own recording buffer.

GovernorSilver · 2015-04-08T14:00:17.000Z

""Anarchosyn"":

I want to sample that guitar, and quickly move (i.e. resample) that loop into another buffer that will then allow me to cut, reorder, pitch, and otherwise manipulate that guitar into a texture or a melodic line, or a gated hi hat, whatever.

I did something similar to that here - except the source instrument is a viola - I built up loops in two pickup machine tracks, then mucked with the sampled audio using two flex machine tracks:

Anarchosyn · 2015-04-09T07:25:11.000Z

Nice work. Digging the track. I love electro-acoustic explorations of timbre.