Potential for an FM drum synthesis set?

Gummi · 2014-11-05T08:21:31.000Z

I am wondering what drum sounds could be given FM synthesis machines, outside of the existing bass and snare drum.

The Cowbell utilizes two oscillators already; I am guessing that one would be simple.
Would other voices be difficult? Could a generic digital sine wave be utilized in the OS to create modulation (keeping the signal analog since only the carrier voice is heard)?

FM synthesis in the MachineDrum was my favorite, making it more punchy and 3D with analog voicing would be heaven

R7 · 2014-11-07T09:49:22.000Z

I’ve been thinking that it would be great if they added a FM hihat machine. It’s so easy to make metallic sounds with FM and pushing it up into higher frequencies and with the proper decay should make a interesting hihat sound.

And there’s only one machine for the hihat so it’s a great contender for a upgrade.

stutech · 2014-11-07T10:20:38.000Z

Do you reckon the AR hihats are built something like the Roland hats ie. a cluster of basic waveforms through a filter? If so, there would certainly be potential in the HH circuitry to do quite a lot of interesting things (assuming that the filter can be disabled from the tonegenerating circuitry).

FWIW I am currently getting by with abusing the FM machines on the first four tracks. Not against more options however

amiga303 · 2014-11-07T12:03:46.000Z

""tsutek"":

Do you reckon the AR hihats are built something like the Roland hats ie. a cluster of basic waveforms through a filter? If so, there would certainly be potential in the HH circuitry to do quite a lot of interesting things

the underlying hardware of is surely capable of much more. not only for the HH.
problem rather is digital control of analog components which is troublesome to add. naturally it cant be added afterwards. thats a reason why polyphonic analog synths with patch saving or full midi CC support are expensive.

what kind of new machines elektron can come up with is one of the things that interests me the most.

Diayse · 2014-11-07T16:03:21.000Z

For newer machines, I guess we can only hope that Elektron put some DACs on tons of voltage controlled parameters so that they could expand with completely new machines. Otherwise we can only hope for new machines which use the same analog parameters (but in different ways).

FM, you need to modulate pitch but in the audio range. Maybe the processor can’t do that digitally (not fast enough). So if they built a machine where one of the oscillator output can be sent to the pitch CV of another oscillator (hardware routing), then we may see a FM based machine in the future!

t · 2014-11-07T17:23:36.000Z

The ability to do Frequency Modulation doesn’t depend on the number of oscillators, but on whether or not these oscillators are connected in such a way that the output of one oscillators can modulate the frequency of the other oscillator.

I don’t think the multi-oscillator circuits of the CH/OH and CY/CB voices are wired in such a way that they could support FM.

I also think it’s unlikely that Elektron would create machines where the frequency modulation gets done in the digital domain; that simply wouldn’t be something you could call “analog” anymore and on top of that, they also have another drum machine that does this kind of stuff in the digitally…

This probably also explains why the Analog Four doesn’t do FM; the oscillators in the A4/AK are DCOs which means the frequency is digitally controlled instead of with a voltage signal.

t · 2014-11-07T17:27:00.000Z

""Diayse"":

FM, you need to modulate pitch but in the audio range. Maybe the processor can’t do that digitally (not fast enough).

Doesn’t the LFO in the RYTM already goes up into audio range? If so, you can effectively get FM by modulating the pitch on any of the machines.
If I remember correctly, someone from Elektron actually confirmed that the processor in the RYTM is already pretty damn busy with generating the control voltages for all those parameters of all the voices.

Prints · 2014-11-07T17:49:48.000Z

[quote=““t””]

Diayse:

FM, you need to modulate pitch but in the audio range. Maybe the processor can’t do that digitally (not fast enough).

Doesn’t the LFO in the RYTM already goes up into audio range? If so, you can effectively get FM by modulating the pitch on any of the machines.
If I remember correctly, someone from Elektron actually confirmed that the processor in the RYTM is already pretty damn busy with generating the control voltages for all those parameters of all the voices.[/quote]
Using an LFO at audio range doesn’t cut it for me. The FM synth engines in the RYTM have a nice “hairy” sound to them due to an analog oscillator modulating another. I sold the A4 because of this; using it’s LFOs at audio range to modulate the filter or pitch of an oscillator doesn’t sound anywhere nearly as good as say my Boomstar, or Dominion 1 doing FM. Then, you have to P-lock in order to use the tones melodically. The synth architecture of the A4/AK doesn’t excite me all that much, but the potential for the RYTM synth architecture excites me quite a bit; it just needs more LFOs/envelopes/modulation sources.

t · 2014-11-07T17:56:43.000Z

""Prints"":

Using an LFO at audio range doesn’t cut it for me. The FM synth engines in the RYTM have a nice “hairy” sound to them due to an analog oscillator modulating another.

Well, yeah, absolutely. That’s exactly the point I was trying to make in my comment just above the one you replied to; no point doing the FM in the digital domain on what’s supposed to be an analogue drum machine.

Prints · 2014-11-07T20:06:26.000Z

""t"":

[quote=“Prints”]Using an LFO at audio range doesn’t cut it for me. The FM synth engines in the RYTM have a nice “hairy” sound to them due to an analog oscillator modulating another.

Well, yeah, absolutely. That’s exactly the point I was trying to make in my comment just above the one you replied to; no point doing the FM in the digital domain on what’s supposed to be an analogue drum machine. :)[/quote]
Ah, I see. Sorry, I missed the post above. Actually, I think it would be REALLY cool if Elektron somehow added digital synth engines that could be chosen in place of the sample playback engine (as an option); just a few maybe… like different types of transient synth machines based on digital FM/physical modeling/etc.

I know this will never happen, but it would be the most awesome thing Elektron could do with the RYTM in my opinion.

Gummi · 2014-11-11T21:19:15.000Z

Having a digital modulator in an FM synthesis drum machine makes the sound no less analog than digital envelopes or the digital LFO. If having a digital sine as modulator for FM drum machines is what needs to happen, I am perfectly fine with it. I agree that the analog modulator gives a hairy grit to it, although for things like cowbell or hi hats I think the digital edge on a modulator would give the analog signal some glossy sheen.

t · 2014-11-11T22:56:40.000Z

""Gummi"":

Having a digital modulator in an FM synthesis drum machine makes the sound no less analog than digital envelopes or the digital LFO. If having a digital sine as modulator for FM drum machines is what needs to happen, I am perfectly fine with it. I agree that the analog modulator gives a hairy grit to it, although for things like cowbell or hi hats I think the digital edge on a modulator would give the analog signal some glossy sheen.

Go for it! You can already modulate all parameters with the LFO at audio rate today.

R7 · 2014-11-12T06:18:16.000Z

The only thing about using a digital LFO up into audio rates is the potential for aliasing in the waveform. I haven’t done enough tests to confirm this but if anyone’s noticing that it doesn’t sound as good as an analog OSC modulating another analog OSC, it’s a contender for being a culprit.

When you get a wave up to around 500hz or so you start running into issues with the Nyquist frequency and you get aliasing. As far as I know anyways.

The hi hat machine is a bunch of square wave oscillators according to the manual, I’m not sure how they are routed together if it would be possible for any to modulate the others. I’d still like to have as many FM machines as possible, analog modulating OSCs or digital ones. However they get implemented and even if it’s a hybrid analog/digital with some aliasing it’s all more sound options in the end.

nightfade · 2014-11-12T06:27:16.000Z

+1 Prints

Given the AR is not strictly an analog-only machine and the fact that development of the MD is over, I see no reason why the AR couldn’t be treated to some digital machines in place of the sample slots.

Algorithmic FM in any Elektron product would be appreciated

t · 2014-11-12T08:27:12.000Z

I can’t find the thread, but if I’m not mistaken, one of the Elektron people confirmed my suspicion that we shouldn’t expect to many features that require significant processing power from the CPU in the RYTM because it’s already pretty damn busy generating all those high-resolution CV signals…

amiga303 · 2014-11-12T16:29:26.000Z

i totally hope too we get new machines.
especially regarding the machines available for tracks 5-12 where I couldnt explore any new interesting sound for a long while now …