Polyrhythms

rhizome · 2014-04-03T13:38:24.000Z

really hope better support for poly/odd time sigs comes in an update some day. arbitrary number of steps per sequencer page, arbitrary number of steps for all quantized parameters (QREC, manual track trig, etc), arbitrary number of slices in a slice grid, and so on. actually I think the only odd time-friendly features right now are RLEN and the metronome…

so much potential that is frustratingly just out of reach, especially if you’ve become accustomed to using the machine in 4/4.

miketheman · 2014-04-03T14:40:42.000Z

""husc"":

[quote=“miketheman”]Note to self:
What happens with the retrig time parameter (musically) if track is in another time signature?

Nothing changes, as the RTIM parameter is related to tempo.[/quote]
OK. Am I thinking correct here that if you would set a tracks time signature to, i e, 3/4. The RTIM, i e, to 1/2. That the sound affected by the RTIM would alter in being in syncope every second trig? Hopefully I´ve got the example number/time signature right in above, I suck at thinking in this way…

Let me explain my thoughts further, (think of this as a drumkit example):

Kick track going 4/4
Snare track going 3/4, but only one trig hit (on beat) which together with the RTIM set would have it “expanded” into syncope whenever an random LFO gets the re-trig activated?

F**k, that was hard to explain. Hope it made enough sense…

husc · 2014-04-03T14:52:04.000Z

Don’t overcomplicate things, I do that all the time and it kills creativity!

miketheman · 2014-04-03T23:22:15.000Z

[quote="“husc” date=“2014-04-03 14:52:04"”]
Don’t overcomplicate things, I do that all the time and it kills creativity!
[/quote]

Hahaha. No it’s alright. I’m trying to create an method to be able to get an drumbeat programmed with certain randomness in the rhythm, but which still will have some kind of “logic” in the random selections. Random LFO’s with very modest depth on re-trig seems to be a part of the “solution”. The reason for all this is that I want to get an jamming drummachine that I can play guitar with. Where an fixed pre-made beat/rhythm with no variations (or them at the same place in the same way everytime), certainly would kill my creativity flow.

That was an quite interesting experiment. Will upload an example, perhaps tomorrow or something.

miketheman · 2014-04-04T06:47:35.000Z

""miketheman"":

[quote=“husc”]Don’t overcomplicate things, I do that all the time and it kills creativity!

Hahaha. No it’s alright. I’m trying to create an method to be able to get an drumbeat programmed with certain randomness in the rhythm, but which still will have some kind of “logic” in the random selections. Random LFO’s with very modest depth on re-trig seems to be a part of the “solution”. The reason for all this is that I want to get an jamming drummachine that I can play guitar with. Where an fixed pre-made beat/rhythm with no variations (or them at the same place in the same way everytime), certainly would kill my creativity flow.

That was an quite interesting experiment. Will upload an example, perhaps tomorrow or something.[/quote]
There we go:
[url=“Stream TimeSigReTrigBeat by miketheman79 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud”]
Stream TimeSigReTrigBeat by miketheman79 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Still some tweaks to be done, I think I should make the hat re-trigs being on the snare track (instead of the kick track) to “tie” the arm to alter between the hat and the snare (but not both the re-trig and snare “being hit” at the same time).

glaciertree · 2014-04-04T14:02:33.000Z

nice, haven’t taken time to play with polyrhythms yet, thanks for posting the example. I hope to try this out at somepoint.

subq · 2014-04-04T15:42:39.000Z

""miketheman"":

There we go:
[url=“Stream TimeSigReTrigBeat by miketheman79 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud”]
Stream TimeSigReTrigBeat by miketheman79 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Still some tweaks to be done, I think I should make the hat re-trigs being on the snare track (instead of the kick track) to “tie” the arm to alter between the hat and the snare (but not both the re-trig and snare “being hit” at the same time).

very nice, gotta love all the potential with the OT

OSCar · 2014-04-04T16:21:19.000Z

""miketheman"":

I haven´t explored this much:

What are you preference polyrhythm setup (in a “musical” sense)? I e, if and when making drumbeats.

4/4 against (insert time signature)?

Do you adjust microtiming alot too or just leave evrything as it is?
I kinda gets confused about how to think about the grid, whenever I´ve tried other settings.
If I´m having one track 4/4, it´s easy to “see” the rhythm on the trigger buttons (1-16). But if having 3/4 instead, it gets harder “visually” to feel where I should set the trigs. Which means quite some trial and error, but I haven´t been fully satisfied with the results.

Note to self:
What happens with the retrig time parameter (musically) if track is in another time signature?

It depends on what you’re after.
Start off by simply using standard timing and different step lengths per track.
Your better off understanding the programming of a straight polyrhythm before you get into polymeric programming.
Just remember that every 4 16th steps are a crotchet (quarter note)
So by setting one track to say 16 steps and another to 25 steps you have 4/4 and 6/4 combined.
When dealing with poly metric timing you’re usually best to start of working in easily divisible multiples 1/2 or 1/4 or x 2 for starters so that you can get something that is half the speed, double the speed and a quarter the sped of the master tempo of another track.
A simple example of this is using D’n’B breaks at x2 on a 90BPM track so that your bass and pads for example clock in at 90BPM but your drums scuttle over the top at 180bpm - then you could create a melody playing an odd number of steps say 29 for 7/4 and slow that down to 1/4 for 45BPM riff.
These will loop around each other and essentially have different points of rotation so they will sound similar but not always the same on each repeat.
The 3/4 and 3/2 divisors act like triplet 8th and triplet 16th sub divisions per quarter note and don’t always gel well with a straight up time signature.
Generally on a unit like the OT I’ll keep working on the basis that each for steals in a quarter note and work out how many 16th steps I need for 4/4, 5/4,6/4 etc I may need. By halving it each step lasts for a 8th note (quaver) and doubling means each step his a 32nd note (hemisemiquaver).
By using my 2 Monomachines and my A4 in this way I cam quite easily get pretty intricate results very quickly.
On something like an RS7000 you could define your phrase lengths in measures and add a time signature for each phrase as well as a metric divisor which get s a whole lot more complex.
Using a more simplified method first (and technically a poly rhythm will usually be in the same tempo with a different rhythmic count) you can get very complex sounding material when you don’t place notes on obvious accent, down or up beats.
Generally I love the combo of 7/4 and 4/4 or 15/16 and 4/4 on a more complex sequencer but as stated start of simple and go from there.
This track of mine is a prime example of what the OT can do just using variable step counts per track over both the internal sampling engine and midi. It can get quite wonky pretty fast.
https://soundcloud.com/venndiagram/gelatine

miketheman · 2014-04-04T16:21:44.000Z

""subq"":

[quote=“miketheman”]There we go:
[url=“Stream TimeSigReTrigBeat by miketheman79 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud”]
Stream TimeSigReTrigBeat by miketheman79 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Still some tweaks to be done, I think I should make the hat re-trigs being on the snare track (instead of the kick track) to “tie” the arm to alter between the hat and the snare (but not both the re-trig and snare “being hit” at the same time).

very nice, gotta love all the potential with the OT ;)[/quote]
Yup, agree on that. LOTS of potential indeed. I have also been thinking about patterns as well as the LFO designer and Arranger regarding this “method” too.

Thinking about the differencies between humans/machines. An (good) human drummer have his/hers taste in their selection of fills, beats etc. That could be seen as something “random” for anyone else (except the drummer who “knows” what he/she is about to play).
But it still limited down to 2 arms and 2 legs. Which in a way would/should define which parts of the drumkit that belongs together (as in: never hit at the same time due to the humans restrictions) in the OT. Then we have the risk of the “randomness” of anything set to random, which in a sense is counteractive to a drummers “taste”. If they´re playing a beat as similar, i e, to my example. They wouldn´t fire off anything equal to the OT´s re-trig parameter maxed out or RTIM at minimum. Unless they have an total bad taste of course ( ). Thus, we need to narrow down the worse randomness in the OT.

This is where I´ve also been thinking about the LFO designer, perhaps it should be tied to the RTIM. Where I set a few “random” but still choosen values which should be the “taste” selections (tom/snare fills).

And the Arranger of course, to set the song structure as a whole. If grid size is big enough (i e 64 steps), I could have the first 32 steps being the normal beats without much/any random variations. And the last 32 steps pretty much the same but with the variations included. Then arrange up the structure as needed. Easy enough to build short/long passages of any of these two “halves” thanks to the repeat and position parameter in the arranger. And the patterns could be used for different kind of beats, which you really can´t get the machine come up fully with by itself. But letting it taking care of the variations, in any of these patterns.

miketheman · 2014-04-04T16:24:16.000Z

""VennDiagram"":

[quote=“miketheman”]I haven´t explored this much:

What are you preference polyrhythm setup (in a “musical” sense)? I e, if and when making drumbeats.

4/4 against (insert time signature)?

Do you adjust microtiming alot too or just leave evrything as it is?
I kinda gets confused about how to think about the grid, whenever I´ve tried other settings.
If I´m having one track 4/4, it´s easy to “see” the rhythm on the trigger buttons (1-16). But if having 3/4 instead, it gets harder “visually” to feel where I should set the trigs. Which means quite some trial and error, but I haven´t been fully satisfied with the results.

Note to self:
What happens with the retrig time parameter (musically) if track is in another time signature?

It depends on what you’re after.
Start off by simply using standard timing and different step lengths per track.
Your better off understanding the programming of a straight polyrhythm before you get into polymeric programming.
Just remember that every 4 16th steps are a crotchet (quarter note)
So by setting one track to say 16 steps and another to 25 steps you have 4/4 and 6/4 combined.
When dealing with poly metric timing you’re usually best to start of working in easily divisible multiples 1/2 or 1/4 or x 2 for starters so that you can get something that is half the speed, double the speed and a quarter the sped of the master tempo of another track.
A simple example of this is using D’n’B breaks at x2 on a 90BPM track so that your bass and pads for example clock in at 90BPM but your drums scuttle over the top at 180bpm - then you could create a melody playing an odd number of steps say 29 for 7/4 and slow that down to 1/4 for 45BPM riff.
These will loop around each other and essentially have different points of rotation so they will sound similar but not always the same on each repeat.
The 3/4 and 3/2 divisors act like triplet 8th and triplet 16th sub divisions per quarter note and don’t always gel well with a straight up time signature.
Generally on a unit like the OT I’ll keep working on the basis that each for steals in a quarter note and work out how many 16th steps I need for 4/4, 5/4,6/4 etc I may need. By halving it each step lasts for a 8th note (quaver) and doubling means each step his a 32nd note (hemisemiquaver).
By using ny 2 Monomachines and my A4 in this way I cam quite easily get pretty intricate results very quickly.
On something like an RS7000 you could define your phrase lengths in measures and add a time signature for each phrase as well as a metric divisor which get s a whole lot more complex.
Using a more simplified method first (and technically a poly rhythm will usually be in the same tempo with a different rhythmic count) you can get very complex sounding material when you don’t place notes on obvious accent, down or up beats.
Generally I love the combo of 7/4 and 4/4 or 15/16 and 4/4 on a more complex sequencer but as stated start of simple and go from there.
This track of mine is a prime example of what the OT can do just using variable step counts per track over both the internal sampling engine and midi. It can get quite wonky pretty fast.
https://soundcloud.com/venndiagram/gelatine

[/quote]
WOW!

Thanks for your tips here, gonna go all in to understand as much as possible of this. Never heard of anything called polymeric programming. Gonna look into that too.

OSCar · 2014-04-04T16:34:21.000Z

Working with multiple meters and tempo divisions can get rather complex though and a tad confusing.

Another thing to explore is the retrig functions in the OT which can work like a clock divisor per step and create ratcheting effects more commonly associated with analog step sequencing (ratcheting was a definitive trade mark sound of Tangerine Dream on many releases and used quite often on melodic passages).

This for example was done with the MD and a Multitrack Monomachine (before I had two units) - the melodic interaction in the second half was largely created by clocking the same melodic lines on the MnM at half tempo and playing them over the top of the ones played at standard tempo.

So when you think of polyrhythmns don’t just think of beats as the technique can lead to some wonderfully quirky and unique melodic play.

Duncan · 2014-04-04T18:01:28.000Z

Awesome stuff, just great!

PeterHanes · 2014-04-04T18:13:13.000Z

[quote=“” miketheman""]

[quote=“undefined”]SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds
[/quote]

Never heard of anything called polymeric programming.[/quote]
It’s all about compound time signatures [dumb chemistry joke].
But seriously, great ideas and great music on this thread! Thanks, everyone!

miketheman · 2014-04-04T20:04:39.000Z

""VennDiagram"":

Working with multiple meters and tempo divisions can get rather complex though and a tad confusing.

Another thing to explore is the retrig functions in the OT which can work like a clock divisor per step and create ratcheting effects more commonly associated with analog step sequencing (ratcheting was a definitive trade mark sound of Tangerine Dream on many releases and used quite often on melodic passages).

SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds

This for example was done with the MD and a Multitrack Monomachine (before I had two units) - the melodic interaction in the second half was largely created by clocking the same melodic lines on the MnM at half tempo and playing them over the top of the ones played at standard tempo.

So when you think of polyrhythmns don’t just think of beats as the technique can lead to some wonderfully quirkily and unique melodic play.

Wow, I have to say that this clip was truly great!

Normally, I don´t think anything at all about polyrhythmns. You could say that that would be the problem…

I just play (main instrument: guitar). Funny thing is that my drummer tells me whenever I´m coming up with some (picking)figure, what it is time signature and all. And I´m always like: “uuh, ok…?!?” (not understanding much and not really caring too much either).

I just play something that “feels” natural/musical. Which in example can be me altering between playing the full figure and then playing an broken/shorter version of it against the base tempo/time signature. Pretty much always with delay in use (which can be in another time signature).

Many would say that you can hear U2 (the edge) being a huge influence in my playing. But I´m more like: great minds thinks alike…

I have listened to U2 since early teens (34 now), and played guitar all these years as well. But I can´t play a single U2 song (not interested in learning that), but yet I have a very similar palette of sounds and expressions.

darenager · 2014-04-04T20:49:00.000Z

The way that pages and track lengths are set up on the Octatrack is almost like Elektron either do not understand poly rhythms or do not want users to step out of 4/4 time (Ok, I’m kidding, but it certainly could be improved)

It would be far more intuitive to have the first number as amount of steps per page, and the second as the number of pages, then to cater for odd number of steps have a last step parameter, on the rare occassion that you might want that. Or just add an option in preferences for the old non intuitive way, or the easily visualised way

Or even better yet, have the option to turn steps inactive in each page perhaps in a similar way that swing and accent etc are accessed, but then if doing that you might as well also add a chance parameter so that steps can have some random probability

TrabanT · 2014-07-02T05:26:29.000Z

""VennDiagram"":

[quote=“miketheman”]I haven´t explored this much:

What are you preference polyrhythm setup (in a “musical” sense)? I e, if and when making drumbeats.

4/4 against (insert time signature)?

Do you adjust microtiming alot too or just leave evrything as it is?
I kinda gets confused about how to think about the grid, whenever I´ve tried other settings.
If I´m having one track 4/4, it´s easy to “see” the rhythm on the trigger buttons (1-16). But if having 3/4 instead, it gets harder “visually” to feel where I should set the trigs. Which means quite some trial and error, but I haven´t been fully satisfied with the results.

Note to self:
What happens with the retrig time parameter (musically) if track is in another time signature?

It depends on what you’re after.
Start off by simply using standard timing and different step lengths per track.
Your better off understanding the programming of a straight polyrhythm before you get into polymeric programming.
Just remember that every 4 16th steps are a crotchet (quarter note)
So by setting one track to say 16 steps and another to 25 steps you have 4/4 and 6/4 combined.
When dealing with poly metric timing you’re usually best to start of working in easily divisible multiples 1/2 or 1/4 or x 2 for starters so that you can get something that is half the speed, double the speed and a quarter the sped of the master tempo of another track.
A simple example of this is using D’n’B breaks at x2 on a 90BPM track so that your bass and pads for example clock in at 90BPM but your drums scuttle over the top at 180bpm - then you could create a melody playing an odd number of steps say 29 for 7/4 and slow that down to 1/4 for 45BPM riff.
These will loop around each other and essentially have different points of rotation so they will sound similar but not always the same on each repeat.
The 3/4 and 3/2 divisors act like triplet 8th and triplet 16th sub divisions per quarter note and don’t always gel well with a straight up time signature.
Generally on a unit like the OT I’ll keep working on the basis that each for steals in a quarter note and work out how many 16th steps I need for 4/4, 5/4,6/4 etc I may need. By halving it each step lasts for a 8th note (quaver) and doubling means each step his a 32nd note (hemisemiquaver).
By using my 2 Monomachines and my A4 in this way I cam quite easily get pretty intricate results very quickly.
On something like an RS7000 you could define your phrase lengths in measures and add a time signature for each phrase as well as a metric divisor which get s a whole lot more complex.
Using a more simplified method first (and technically a poly rhythm will usually be in the same tempo with a different rhythmic count) you can get very complex sounding material when you don’t place notes on obvious accent, down or up beats.
Generally I love the combo of 7/4 and 4/4 or 15/16 and 4/4 on a more complex sequencer but as stated start of simple and go from there.
This track of mine is a prime example of what the OT can do just using variable step counts per track over both the internal sampling engine and midi. It can get quite wonky pretty fast.
https://soundcloud.com/venndiagram/gelatine

[/quote]
this beat is siick as fuuck!

enryo · 2017-01-21T08:52:08.692Z

Rebooting old thread…

Can you, for example, set a track with 11 steps all spread equally across 32 steps? So that those 11 steps will be evenly spaced and loop every 2 bars of 4/4?

PeterHanes · 2017-01-21T12:47:40.572Z

enryo:

Can you, for example, set a track with 11 steps all spread equally across 32 steps? So that those 11 steps will be evenly spaced and loop every 2 bars of 4/4?

Not in the sequencer. You would have to sample and time stretch.

The OT sequencer is basically polymetric: tracks can have different lengths in terms of number of steps. The only option for polyrhythmic sequencing is to use a tempo multiplier (of which there are a limited set) on a track. See page 94 of the manual.

To get the effect you want you would have to make the master pattern length to be a multiple of 11 (say, 44), and sub-divide each track’s 44 trig steps into the time intervals you want.

sleepystevo · 2017-01-25T07:36:08.016Z

Don’t forget you have microtiming with the OT, so you can pretty much move notes wherever you want them. In the case you described it’s just a matter of working out how far to space them apart… Simple math. Check out this thread Polyrhythm Table for Micro Timings (Triplets, Quintets, etc.)

J.m · 2017-01-27T14:53:30.589Z

That post from goatofneptune that Steve is referring to is super useful and will get you where you wish to go.