Virtue gives birth to tranquility, tranquility to leisure, leisure to disorder, disorder to ruin⌠and similarly from ruin, order is born, from order virtue, from virtue, glory and good fortune. Niccolò Machiavelli.
IMO Western civilization is currently passing from the leisure faze into disorder. This is I guess more of shock in the US as the nation has grown in wealth and power pretty much since its inception, exponentially since WW2, when it became the dominant Empire. Many European nations at have the historical experience of a catastrophic collapse followed by a renaissance.
In any case, a certain manifesto to cure the evils of capitalism, written by a maverick German philosopher residing in London in the 19th Century is not a perspective solution. Read what went down in the USSR , Maoâs China, Cambodia. Donât think it would work out any better in the US because âit would somehow be different this timeâ.
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Oh damn guys come on. quoting smart guys wonât cover up this black and white beliefs. No one beliefs that Communism is the answer. But neither is capitalism. A clash of civilization is also not inherent. Itâs not just black and white. Water and health care of course should be in the hand of the state but for gods sake make money with all the luxury goods.
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Omg scandinavia not Venezuela 
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I wouldnât be so sure
Are you from the US? Ever thought about where this panic of communism is coming from and why people like sanders get those labels?
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I mentioned neither. Whatâs your point, omg?
That Sanders/dem socialists are looking to Scandinavia as a model not the right red herrings Venezuela or any of the others you mentioned.
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The Swedish welfare state is under severe strain. It canât last in its current form.
I really sympathise and understand the desire in the US for a decent public health system, better public transport, better schools etc.
Machiavelliâs observation was pretty genious: he recognised the cyclical nature of civilizations at a time when the predominating worldview was a linear perception of limitless progress.
And the others? Besides, I doubt itâs going to turn into Maoist China.
But the thing is. If there is no public health system, no better schools, and no better public transportâŚwhy the heck would people need governing if itâs not for the essentials in life.
If you are quoting machiavelli then you also know the term Machiavellism which stands for keeping power without caring for the right of law or moral standards. If you talk about civilizations then what are the basic standard if not right and moral.
And by the way there is no nature to the way civilizations develop. Limitless progress is a problem in itself, that should be pretty obvious.
The Swedish state may be under severe strain, like any other state. US canât last in their current form neither. But this is not due to welfare in both cases.
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And to welfareâŚcan someone explain to me why people always think the poor are stealing the money? Just look at where the money is, then you know who is taking a strain on your state.
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You contradicted yourself: civilizations indeed require a moral framework in order to develop.
Iâm not a believer, but the fact is that Christianity formed the moral framework of western civilization. With itâs demise, a moral and spiritual vacum has emerged, thus the cult-like nature of certain political / activist groups.
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I donât follow politics is my go too. It works and itâs true, donât pay attention to it.
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I don´t see the contradiction. South American high cultures had some bad morals from my point of view.
It may be true that Christianity played a big part in western morals but I would argue that philosophy played a big part as well Kant for example and the categorical imperative is a logical approach to value and moral. So if you ask me, there must not be a vacuum just because the demise of Christianity. People can carry âgoodâ morals out of themselves. I even would recommend to do so and not just take a framework which maybe one doesn´t fully comply with.
^This! So much this!
If this is the observation, whatâs the solution?
Do you really believe that only in recent times we have had âcult likeâ political and activist groups?
Second, this idea that there is a moral and spiritual vacuum is interesting. I think once again you will find people have claimed that over and over in history.
[quote=âMonobear, post:95, topic:121995â]
I don´t see the contradiction. South American high cultures had some bad morals from my point of view.
[/quote] In my defense, I made no mention of good or bad morals, simply that moral cohesion is required for the growth of a civilization.
The problem is, what you consider âgoodâ morals may not be the same as what your neighbour considers âgoodâ morals, and there goes cohesion.
I suspect your idea of âgoodâ morals are essentially an extension of Christian morals. Mine certainly are.
As for Kant
First, no but there certainly is a proliferation in the west now.
2nd; Some of them were undoubtedly correct.
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