Please help! octatrack and guitar?

jurfin · 2014-01-13T02:33:02.000Z

i am brand spanking new here - and am really hoping you guys can help me out! i consider myself fluent and knowledgeable with my guitar pedals - and there are a lot of them. this is my first leap in to anything beyond my pedals - and im not sure if this unit is right for me, but the wealth of possibilities is super intriguing to me. i have been looking for a looper - and i discovered the octatrack. why would i put my hard earned money towards a stupid old looper when i could get an octatrack?

im just going to lay out my situation, and maybe someone can help me learn a bit about the octatrack, and make the right decision?

i play guitar in a band. my bandmate uses ableton live with a midi controller keyboard, which he uses to make the drums, bass, keys, synthy noise stuff, and pretty much everything else except guitar. i need a device that i can use as a midi slave to the tempo of his stuff. i know the octatrack can do this.

here is where i get a little confused, and forgive my ignorance, as i have not yet delved into equipment as deep as what you guys are working with.

at its most simple and practical point, i need a device that will play pre-recorded rhythm guitar parts in sync with my band mates ableton live. can the octatrack store multiple rhythm guitar loops like this, to be played over the course of a set? are there presets that would allow me to go from one song to the next? i know the different tracks can hold different samples, but i get confused beyond that.

because i play guitar, i will probably need to get a midi foot controller to start and stop these pre-recorded loops. if there is a way to do this without one, please fill me in.

beyond that simple and fundamental function, i am wondering if i can use the octatrack as a live looper for my guitar stuff. i read that you must pre-determine the length of your loop before recording. is there any way around this? i dont always want a loop to be perfectly in time - starting here and ending there. sometimes i want to lay out a chord change or a wash of reverb mess, and then loop things on top of that. how easily and quickly can i accomplish this in a live setting?

i am really excited about what the octatrack could do for me - taking my music beyond just playing the guitar and truly manipulating samples and my guitar work, but i have to make sure that these simple functions are going to be easily accessible in a live setting, and practical enough to get used often.

i am also curious - what aspects of the octatrack were designed with the guitarist in mind? there is a lot of info out there, as there should be with a unit this deep, but i feel like i might be missing a few things amongst the enormous wealth of data.

any insight you guys could give would be greatly appreciated!

thanks for your time!

jeff

natrixgli · 2014-01-13T03:02:46.000Z

You can probably do what you want with the Octatrack. But it’s a very complex and deep machine. Your best bet is to download the manual and have a read through prior to deciding.

If a lot of what you read in the manual is confusing, don’t be alarmed. It takes time to wrap your head around it, and a little imagination to decide what is the best way to implement it for YOUR particular use case.

I will say this though, nothing beats getting one and trying it out.

Another option would be for you to have your bandmate setup some tracks in Ableton for you and map them to a foot controller with the Looper effect. That way you’d be in sync with what he is doing AND you’d have more functionality than just a looper pedal. If you worked it out right, it could be really cool. If his sound card has separate outputs available you could route your guitar tracks through those and back into your amp.

natrixgli · 2014-01-13T03:05:24.000Z

PS: If you haven’t already, watch this video:

jurfin · 2014-01-13T03:31:30.000Z

thanks! i have actually been browsing through the manual and i feel it has been very helpful so far.

i will talk with my bandmate about those options -

Accent · 2014-01-13T04:45:15.000Z

As far as using a footpedal, you might want to check out this thread: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/869189-octatrack-foot-switch-compatibility.html

boboter · 2014-01-13T09:02:44.000Z

I love my Octatrack to death but I’m not sure if I would recommend it as a live looper. There is a difference in it between recording a loop and layering sounds on top of each other like a looper would do. The latter is a little confusing and also it doesn’t have an undo-function. Which I think is pretty important.

Playing the pre-recorded loops should work fairly easy, though. You can also make your buddy’s Ableton trigger them so they will play automatically but that depends on if you want that to happen.

boboter · 2014-01-13T09:07:20.000Z

""natrixgli"":

Another option would be for you to have your bandmate setup some tracks in Ableton for you and map them to a foot controller with the Looper effect. That way you’d be in sync with what he is doing AND you’d have more functionality than just a looper pedal. If you worked it out right, it could be really cool. If his sound card has separate outputs available you could route your guitar tracks through those and back into your amp.

Sorry, missed that part before answering.
This is probably how I would do it for the pre-recorded stuff as well. Also, if you want a separate looper, the Pigtronix Infinity Looper is really nice and can get synced via midi.

miketheman · 2014-01-13T10:33:18.000Z

“i need a device that i can use as a midi slave to the tempo of his stuff. i know the octatrack can do this.”
Yes, this is possible. However Ableton have numerous times been reported as a bit unstable in providing clock. I can´t vouch for this being the truth however (no attempts or experience with Ableton).

"can the octatrack store multiple rhythm guitar loops like this, to be played over the course of a set? are there presets that would allow me to go from one song to the next? i know the different tracks can hold different samples, but i get confused beyond that."
Yes, you can keep different guitar samples just like any other type of samples. There are no presets, as presets usually are known in i e rack processors. You do have Projects or Patterns. Each project could potentially almost be regarded as a “new” unit. One project could be setup working with samples only. Another working with the two PickUp machines only (with memory set to max for these).
Patterns on the other hand are close to what would be considered presets in a rack processors. Which means you´re able to recall them with normal program changes. However, each pattern are subjective to your project settings.

“midi foot controller to start and stop these pre-recorded loops. if there is a way to do this without one, please fill me in.”
You could setup Ableton to trigger all these loops by sending appropiate midi messages (note numbers, program changes and/or controller changes), they would always be related to Ableton though. May limit your freedom a bit and could mean potential problems if clock sync are being a bit finicky.

"i am wondering if i can use the octatrack as a live looper for my guitar stuff. i read that you must pre-determine the length of your loop before recording."
Depends a bit of where you´re coming from regarding experience of live loopers. It´s no Echoplex DPP, Looperlative or JamMan, even though it got some features that may remind you of them. You can reserve lenght of your recording time (so any flex samples won´t take up that memory), you can pre-determine lenght (so it fits with your OT sequencer). You can also use dynamic recorder lenght, but still that depends on what other stuff you´ve got loaded (flex samples). You could i e set an reserve lenght for R1 only (recorder 1), set that as dynamic in the memory settings and it would provide you with roughly 500sec (= 8 min). But then there´s nothing left for the other tracks. Remember this could be one of your projects, next project could be totally different in that regard. Still, the OT got a sequencer in it that it have to relate to (i e the grid). Live loopers doesn´t have that…

"easily accessible in a live setting, and practical enough to get used often."
That is totally up to WHAT you want to do. You may have to “construct” some workarounds regarding some features, that would be considered standard or “easy” with live loopers. But upside is that some features are unique in OT. You probably will have to adapt your mindset anyway…

“what aspects of the octatrack were designed with the guitarist in mind?”
Well, the PickUp machines weren´t necessarily designed with guitarist in mind (since they often need controllers anyway). But it was an adaptation of what´s already in there in other aspects. But many are using Flex recorders instead, since that gives you a few things that aren´t normally in an live looper (i e sequenced record/playback). All aspects got their pro´s and con´s…

bandersong · 2014-01-13T14:21:54.000Z

I’m currently in a two piece project where I run the elekctronics and my friend plays guitar.

When we tried to use the OT as a more traditional style looper, it was a miserable failure. The lack of an undo was the biggest downfall, and it was immediately glaring and painful. Especially in a live setting it was pretty unacceptable.

So what we did instead was set up one side of the OT to be flex machines that function as a four layer looper, meaning that r1-r4 would record various layers of the loop we wanted. We were limited to only four layers, however the use of the sequencer, plus a “ghetto undo” (just delete the last recording since they are different files for each layer) and different effects “per layer” made it a lot better.

However, in our current set up, I loop the guitar while he plays it. The OT is an instrument in its own right and I would personally find it difficult to manipulate both a guitar and OT in real time.

jurfin · 2014-01-13T16:48:11.000Z

you guys are cool - thanks so much!

i am leaning towards the OT because i want to go beyond playing guitar. i love playing my guitar - but i want to take our music further and whatnot.

its not really in the budget to get a looper and the octatrack. i think i am going to have to make it work with one or the other.

if anyone cares to post a pic of their rig - guitar or otherwise - and how you have incorporated the OT with it - i would be very grateful. im thinking maybe a tabletop next to the pedalboard? or perhaps there is some kind of stand that i am unaware of…

thanks again guys!

GovernorSilver · 2014-01-14T18:47:53.000Z

The closest thing the Octatrack has to “presets” are Projects, Banks and Parts. Those are probably the types of things to look at for programming your live set. I think the manual “wants” you to set up one Project per song, then put them all into one Set which represents your… well… set!

For live looping, the Master pickup machine seems to be stable enough. Slave pickup machines seem to be less stable, but it could be i’m just doing something wrong. There are workarounds for the lack of undo, though I’ve never tried them. Before the Octatrack, I was using a Line 6 DL-4 and EHX 16-Second Delay Reissue for live looping, and neither of those units had undo - as a result I’ve never needed to use undo. If I screw up, it’s just my bad and I need to practice more… or I keep the mistake in and let the Octatrack turn it into fun noise!

However, I recently picked up an Akai Headrush E2 on clearance for $89, so I’ll probably lean heavily on that for live looping, and just use the Octatrack to sample it as I please.

There are several threads now on this forum related to Octatrack + guitar, one example being an interesting one in which the OP figured out how to sample his guitar in an automated fashion - some weird trick that involves assigning a certain type of machine to a track, then assigning a different one to it.

jurfin · 2014-01-14T21:55:40.000Z

""GovernorSilver"":

The closest thing the Octatrack has to “presets” are Projects, Banks and Parts. Those are probably the types of things to look at for programming your live set. I think the manual “wants” you to set up one Project per song, then put them all into one Set which represents your… well… set!

For live looping, the Master pickup machine seems to be stable enough. Slave pickup machines seem to be less stable, but it could be i’m just doing something wrong. There are workarounds for the lack of undo, though I’ve never tried them. Before the Octatrack, I was using a Line 6 DL-4 and EHX 16-Second Delay Reissue for live looping, and neither of those units had undo - as a result I’ve never needed to use undo. If I screw up, it’s just my bad and I need to practice more… or I keep the mistake in and let the Octatrack turn it into fun noise!

However, I recently picked up an Akai Headrush E2 on clearance for $89, so I’ll probably lean heavily on that for live looping, and just use the Octatrack to sample it as I please.

There are several threads now on this forum related to Octatrack + guitar, one example being an interesting one in which the OP figured out how to sample his guitar in an automated fashion - some weird trick that involves assigning a certain type of machine to a track, then assigning a different one to it.

i will take a look around for those threads - thanks for the input! i have a strymon timeline that has a pretty capable looper built in, so i can always use that in conjunction with the OT.

one more question - can i use the OT to send midi to my timeline? its looper has additional functions that can only be implemented with midi - like reverse, undo, half speed, and all that snazzy stuff. could i use the OT to send these commands? if so - how would i go about doing that?

miketheman · 2014-01-15T07:48:15.000Z

""jurfin"":

one more question - can i use the OT to send midi to my timeline? its looper has additional functions that can only be implemented with midi - like reverse, undo, half speed, and all that snazzy stuff. could i use the OT to send these commands? if so - how would i go about doing that?

Most probably. The MIDI tracks are quite capable, you could set up a few CC#s in a MIDI track which transmits commands for your TimeLine on specific trigs in the OT grid. I e record, playback + reverse control (in TimeLine) combined with a Flex Track (audiotrack) in OT which records the TimeLine audio output and then playback THAT in OT (at an octave up + octave down) at specific trigs can yield some very interesting results:

By building an pad sound from your TimeLine, which the OT then periodically samples and also plays back. You can almost get an staccato/pizzicato rhythmsound close to a stringsection, the trick is in that the sample/playback trigs are many and with very short intervals.

To activate CC#s in the OT you´ll have to push the encoder (graphic will become inverse for that encoder in LCD). I missed that myself first, and I know that a few other done that as well. Also make sure that there is no conflict between the audiotracks MIDI channels and the MIDI tracks channels, this is found in projects settings.

Otherwise, it is pretty easy in OT: switch to MIDI tracks. Place some trigs. Tweak CC# encoder(s) to the value needed. Surely, I´ve missed something obvious here as I´m barely awake yet…

jurfin · 2014-01-15T19:20:03.000Z

^^^
very cool. that sounds doable.

while we are at it - i am considering picking up an arturia minibrute or microbrute - preferably the mini - for my first synth.

what kind of possibilities would be opened up by having an OT and a mini brute?

i know that is a super broad quesiton, but i am really out of my element here, and hoping you guys can help. i dont understand all this CV whatnot. i do understand that, potentially, i would be able to use a mini brute as a midi controller for the OT, allowing me to play samples with the keyboard and whatnot. beyond that, i am a little lost.

also - is there a better alternative to the minibrute in that price range? i like the idea of an analog synth, but i also get a killer deal on korg stuff. i am a total noob with this stuff…

GovernorSilver · 2014-01-16T19:11:38.000Z

The Octatrack rabbit hole is pretty deep, lol. If you feel you might be in over your head, just focus on one thing to learn at a time. Set up a separate Project in the OT for each topic you want to explore.

I’ve noticed quite a few fellow OT users like to use other Elektron boxes as OT companions. Other OT “playmate” choices that seem to be popular: Korg Volca boxes, OP-1, iPad apps.

I just got a Microbrute myself. I already had a nice analog monosynth (Voyager), but for the low price, a simpler analog synth with no presets, one knob per function, etc. was just too appealing to me to resist. I’ll probably start off by just improvising noises with it and sampling it into Octatrack, then later dig into MIDI-syncing it with the OT and other stuff. However, I’m not sure the Microbrute is the best choice for a controller - its keyboard does not transmit velocity.

I like all the effects in the OT (esp. the filter, ring mod, and reverbs), but was missing a delay what would let me conveniently mess with time and feedback parameters, especially for getting feedback oscillation. So I got an analog delay pedal (Way Huge Echo Puss) that just happened to be on blowout sale.

Accent · 2014-01-16T19:29:08.000Z

I’d recommend the Bass Station II over the Minibrute. Better build, more versatile, patch memory, and you can send it CCs from the OT to parameter lock it.

ClarkBattle · 2019-03-26T21:29:08.935Z

Ive never used an Octatrack but I have used ZenAud.io. Its what you want. The problem with any loopers is the tap dancing you have to do while playing your guitar. It makes it impossible to control any but the simplest of loops. ZenAud.io (no affiliation) is software that allows you to set up your loop record and play points in advance, then you just press start and play your guitar. It can handle any VST or midi automation on the loops too. So, you could use it in conjunction with an Octatrack for the crazy stuff. But crafting a song with loops in real time with a midi foot pedal while playing an instrument is very limited. Check it out.

GovernorSilver · 2019-03-26T22:03:00.200Z

Wonder what happened to the OP? He started the thread in 2014 and it’s 5 years later.

jurfin · 2019-03-28T22:46:56.324Z

Not sure if that’s sarcasm in reference to the necro bump on this thread. But just for kicks. I have an update haha!

I did end up getting an OT, thanks to the help of my fellow nauts! I had it for a few years and loved every minute of it. I ended up moving on from the OT and that band, and my current setup is an Analog Rytm, MPC Live, DSI Rev 2, and a Beri Model D/Neutron combo. I pretty much only end up playing guitar at work these days, as my machines keep me pretty busy.

The OT holds a special place in my heart. If I had the funds I’d absolutely keep one around, it’s absolutely magical. I might get another someday, just because it’s that great.

Open_Mike · 2019-03-28T22:57:51.965Z

Edit: Post moved here:
-Recorder buffers for looping and live sampling