Playing Techno and House Live

Dawid · 2014-05-07T14:07:44.000Z

The hardest thing (if one isn’t using ready made patterns and such) seems to be that one can’t “pre-listen” to a musical idea that one for example creates on the fly on a synth.

When I jam at home and make a new pattern on my Volca Bass for instance, I have to make a few mistakes, find the right notes so that it is in harmony with the other musical elements, alter the pattern a few times, etc, before I get it just right. (Can take between 10 seconds to 1 minute.) It seems that this is not something I can do in a live sitation, as people will hear that and obviously find it annoying.

It seems the options are:

[ul]
[li]1: Have ready made patterns and sounds. (This makes it less live:ish, to me. It would be cooler to be able to compose everything there and then.)[/li]
[li]2: Know your synths so extremely well that you can compose patterns and sounds without hearing it, and feel confidence that when you introduce your sound/pattern, it will sound great. (This seems quite difficult…)[/li]
[/ul]

Are there any other options? Something like DJs have maybe, where they can prelisten in one of their two channels on their headphones?

nirun · 2014-05-07T14:39:26.000Z

the only secret is time. learn the tool like an instrument. jamming/improvising with guitarists taught me that you eventually teach yourself how to use these things proficiently with out too much “djing”.

i prefer to wipe all patterns and start from scratch each time, with some of the sounds and samples I am comfortable using through experience pushing the sounds to good and bad places.

watch and learn…

jaalmadakan · 2014-05-07T14:51:31.000Z

It’s the more “total improvisation” techniques specifically that I’m interested in.

Thanks for your answer! Very interesting. Do you have anything recorded live that I can listen to?

This is a prepared live set: SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds

This one a “total improvisation” I did with a friend : SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds he plays the Virus, I play the Octatrack and Machinedrum. It’s really rough at the beginning but gets better after a few minutes.

Improvisation from scratch is harder, but there are many tricks you can use for better control:

For synths, chose keys and scales in advance and stick to them. If you know you are playing in Fminor , you know which notes will work and which one won’t work. It’s OK to use presets, and maybe some patterns you know will work.
For drums, presets sounds and patterns would work too I guess
Practice a lot beforehand
Use a friend! duos are aweomse because you double the number of hands and brains, so you can do more complex things and it sounds better for the audience. It also double the fun

Barfunkel · 2014-05-07T15:10:11.000Z

Improvising electronic music live would be cool, but in practice it’s almost impossible to do, particularly on your own. You only have 2 hands, how would you play even, say, a simple drum pattern, a bassline and a chord progression alone? And you’'d have to control the synthesizers too, create new sounds and stuff, unless you plan on using exactly the same sounds for the whole perfomance. Plus FX, maybe some filter sweeps and stuff. You’d need 10 hands.

You could of course hire some professional musicians to help you, but unless you’re a huge star (or otherwise rich) that’s not a realistic scenario. And you’d have to find musicians who both know free improvisation, know how to operate synths and actually like electronic music. Not an easy task.

If you do it alone, premade patterns (at least some of them) is pretty much the only way to go. With no premade material you’d have to be INSANELY good at what you’re doing.

You could of course improvise something, but the music needs to be enjoyable to the audience too. Randomly smashing keys and drum pads is difficult to make sound good.

I kinda would like to do something like this, but with electronic instruments:

nirun · 2014-05-07T15:17:27.000Z

I know my friends hear me tear it up and are like “dude you gotta do a live set”

personally, i am in no rush and would rather be insanely good, then stand around and twiddle with the crossfader and mutes.

I don’t think a drummer needs to load any patterns to keep a band going, i don’t think it’s too far of a leap to build percussion live the same way with sequencers provided the sounds are all tuned well and you’ve used the same set many times before. And by no means am i trying to put down anyone who does this, i do think a combination of both is key.

I agree that it can sound messy, and is not appropriate for all types of music, but if you work below 90 bpm it’s a lot easier than it sounds

dubathonic · 2014-05-07T16:14:58.000Z

""jaalmadakan"":

I personally compose all my patterns in advance, using the Octatrack and Machinedrum like a super 24 tracks groovebox. Synths are either single-notes (basses, chords, etc.) either 4 bars loops (pads, fx-s, ambiences) sampled from various sources. One thing that is very important for me is that the liveset tracks are composed and produced with live performance in mind. I don’t “adapt” studio tracks for live, it’s made for live from the ground up.

Then my actual perforamnce is about playing with mutes, scenes and effects to recreate cool arrangements.

…I do basically the same thing.

As you say, it’s admittedly hard to get track elements sounding good enough for public consumption right from the start. I perform in clubs where the crowd expects DJs and doesn’t really care that I’m trying to do something different. My goal is to sound as good as a DJ spinning professionally produced tracks and if that means I need to do a lot of advance prep, that’s my price of admission.

My feeling is that I’ve still got a great deal of latitude for improv within this context, though. I rehearse compositions so I can perform them in different ways; I don’t always bring in all the elements I have prepared, and I use the OT’s track recorders to grab pieces of grooves and mix them in over other tracks later in the set, the same way a DJ would with two turntables.

MDM · 2014-05-07T16:56:59.000Z

""nirun"":

the only secret is time. learn the tool like an instrument. jamming/improvising with guitarists taught me that you eventually teach yourself how to use these things proficiently with out too much “djing”.

i prefer to wipe all patterns and start from scratch each time, with some of the sounds and samples I am comfortable using through experience pushing the sounds to good and bad places.

watch and learn…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2PtPBOmh1s

man is this you? nicely musically!

Dawid · 2014-05-07T17:34:12.000Z

[quote=“” dubathonic""]

, and I use the OT’s track recorders to grab pieces of grooves and mix them in over other tracks later in the set, the same way a DJ would with two turntables.
[/quote]

Could you elaborate on that?

nirun · 2014-05-07T17:41:17.000Z

""MDM"":

[quote=“nirun”]the only secret is time. learn the tool like an instrument. jamming/improvising with guitarists taught me that you eventually teach yourself how to use these things proficiently with out too much “djing”.

i prefer to wipe all patterns and start from scratch each time, with some of the sounds and samples I am comfortable using through experience pushing the sounds to good and bad places.

watch and learn…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2PtPBOmh1s

man is this you? nicely musically![/quote]
hahaha I wish dude’s got skillz and i have a long way to go but i do think good research, and watching their techniques (Dataline for instance) is a way to speed up the process a bit

dubathonic · 2014-05-07T18:15:27.000Z

[quote=““Dawid””]

dubathonic:

, and I use the OT’s track recorders to grab pieces of grooves and mix them in over other tracks later in the set, the same way a DJ would with two turntables.

Could you elaborate on that? [/quote]
Sure, though if you’re unfamiliar with track recorders I’d recommend a look at the manual. They are one of the ways the OT offers to grab loops on the fly.

The basics: You assign one of the OT’s tracks to be a track recorder and then route audio – some combination of the OT’s other tracks and the instruments run into its inputs – to it. This way you can capture about 4 bars of audio in real time and save it to memory, and later you can assign a track to play it back if you choose.

pmoldzio · 2014-05-07T18:32:47.000Z

@dawid
I use the Cue of the OT when i improvise a melody before i put it i the mix.
What works best for me is to mute some Steps on the initial sequence and bring 'em Back in time after time. This Way i know the result will “fit”.
Besides that: muting and unmuting often reveals sounds i didn’t expect there to be.
Did only a 30-40min live performance for now (and mostly for my friends).
Faaaaar away from performing in a regular club.

MK7 · 2014-05-07T22:13:43.000Z

Just playing patterns and tweaking mutes and params is nice, but I’m bored of it. Of course, it also depends on the stage/DJ desk: are you positioned in the background or visible to everybody? Gigs with, say, 70% patterns, 30% played live (new phrases played on the A4’s keyboard, drum programming) of last year:

“Even More Live”, that’s our strategy for 2014. For me, that means that there have to be 1-2 MIDI keyboards and/or things like Akai MPX8’s in use. As some of you discussed, you need more than 2 hands, that’s why we’re 2-3 guys. There are several ways to use a keyboard: You can do it as Dave Clarke and use it to fire loops, or use it to play drums/melodies live. I prefer the second.

An example for an improvised practice set, about 20% patterns (e.g., kick/snare), 80% played live as in a band, plus live sampling:
https://soundcloud.com/marc-und-moritz/lichterkette
Does it make that much difference soundwise? It’s definitely much more fun.

Octatrack + Akai MPX8 (909 drums+FX) + bass guitar (!) + MIDI keyboards + Ableton Push sequencer and the built in keyboard

One good technique to play melodies live, make sure that the sounds are okay and be safe in case of a lack of creativity is to have patterns prepared in advance, trigger the sounds of these patterns via a MIDI keyboard but keep the sequencer stopped. That’s how I use my A4 now (not: the A4 is not in use in the improvised example above, so there’s still something missing).

Dawid · 2014-05-08T12:51:37.000Z

""pmoldzio"":

@dawid
I use the Cue of the OT when i improvise a melody before i put it i the mix.

Hello!

Is Cue a function where you can hear a sound from a track without it going out through the main outputs? I just noticed there are two “cue outputs” on the back. If you have headphones put in there, does that mean you can hear something in your headphones without the audience hearing it?

That would be awesome.

Dawid · 2014-05-08T15:11:54.000Z

How does Dataline perform live? Is he using ready-made patterns or does he make stuff on the fly?

I’ll look at one of his live sets today!

pmoldzio · 2014-05-08T15:35:32.000Z

[quote=“” Dawid""]

[quote=“pmoldzio”]@dawid
I use the Cue of the OT when i improvise a melody before i put it i the mix.

[/quote]

Hello!

Is Cue a function where you can hear a sound from a track without it going out through the main outputs? I just noticed there are two “cue outputs” on the back. If you have headphones put in there, does that mean you can hear something in your headphones without the audience hearing it?

That would be awesome.[/quote]
Yep:
Just put a headphone in.
Whatever Track you wish to mute: press the Cue Button and the Trackbutton. Voila (works for the Inputs as well)

pmoldzio · 2014-05-08T15:39:40.000Z

Cue not Mute i mean,

BTW: the Cue Outs are for your external Mixer. You can setup your headphone Signal (Cue\Master-Ratio) in the Mixer section

elenacortes · 2014-05-08T22:44:01.000Z

I think that if you want to do your live in total improvisation you Must really perfectly know you machines, your kit or synth sounds. It’s possible.
the easiest consist in preparation of patterns and sounds wich allow you large amount of tweaking possibilities with reasonnable and unboring vafiations in view to make public have a good time listening to you.

i remember an interview of Autechre in witch they declare that the stuff was ready before concert and they just ad variations to the sounds and routines (at the period when they play live with MD & MnM).

Dawid · 2014-05-09T08:48:03.000Z

""pmoldzio"":

[quote=" Dawid"][quote=“pmoldzio”]@dawid
I use the Cue of the OT when i improvise a melody before i put it i the mix.

Hello!

Is Cue a function where you can hear a sound from a track without it going out through the main outputs? I just noticed there are two “cue outputs” on the back. If you have headphones put in there, does that mean you can hear something in your headphones without the audience hearing it?

That would be awesome.[/quote]
Yep:
Just put a headphone in.
Whatever Track you wish to mute: press the Cue Button and the Trackbutton. Voila (works for the Inputs as well)
[/quote]
That is really amazing news. If I understand this correctly, I can prelisten to everything I will perform on my OT, as well as on the synths I plug into the OT inputs. This is super, super, super. Thank you!

brucewayne · 2014-05-09T09:02:01.000Z

one of my favorite livesets is gardland playing on the boiler room. basically they use premade elements (sounds, kits, ect) and jam with them. if you know the record, you will recognize some elements, but basically it’s pretty much improvisation.

Dawid · 2014-05-09T09:37:26.000Z

[quote=“” elenacortes""]
I think that if you want to do your live in total improvisation you Must really perfectly know you machines, your kit or synth sounds. It’s possible.
the easiest consist in preparation of patterns and sounds wich allow you large amount of tweaking possibilities with reasonnable and unboring vafiations in view to make public have a good time listening to you.

i remember an interview of Autechre in witch they declare that the stuff was ready before concert and they just ad variations to the sounds and routines (at the period when they play live with MD & MnM).
[/quote]

The goal will be to even do the patterns on the fly, so as to be as live as possible. I know that if I start to plan one thing in advance (like a few patterns) then I am going to start to want to pre-plan more and more to get everything as perfect as possible. I think that kind of behaviour takes much of the fun out of playing/performing, and adds a lot of stress.

Now I just have to practice A LOT to learn the machines inside and out, and to build up a lot of speed, so things moves and progresses and remains interesting to listen to, even though I (unfortunately) only have two hands.