Pickup machines-sorely missing functions

condit79 · 2015-05-25T18:58:28.000Z

When people make looping devices, it really miffs me that they don’t look at past looping devices for inspiration, especially the GOLD STANDARD echoplex loopers. ten minutes on a looping forum shows a list of what’s needed. The pickup machines are 90% there but missing a very important duo of features that would make them PERFECT. (ranty part over, solutions below)

feedback control: basically you can set this up so that when you overdub, the background audio drops in volume gradually as new loop layers are added and the feedback amount controls this. This is essential if you do whole sets of just looping and would make people really happy in the looping community if this was addressed.
direct to overdub: This is essential because if you’re doing a more ambient texture this ensures that there’s no drop in sound which translates into rhythmically juttery loops. Basically if you can change a setting so looping continues where you set the end of the loop but it keeps recording, you’d get a seamless loop, where there are no clicks or dramatic volume drops. Sure you can add slight fades to the end/beginning, but that would ruin a smooth loop.

If both features were implemented, the octatrack would become the worlds best looper. As it stands it’s a fantastic sampler, I LOVE it and it’s great for chopping things up, but these features would further cement it as a must have for live looping vs just being an afterthought as it feels right now. There’s room in the menu right now for these additions. I know it takes time to program things and I’m thankful that Elektron constantly works on improving their machines, but if looping is going to be included these are two ESSENTIAL functions for any looping device. I really can’t wait to see these possibly happen as I plan on keeping the Octatrack for a very long time, and would even consider a second to dedicate just to looping and know others who are dismissing it because of these sorely missing features in the looping arena.

condit79 · 2015-05-25T19:00:21.000Z

BTW, here is a link to features that people who depend on looping have determined over the years to be essential functions. http://www.looproom.com/looperchart.php

LyingDalai · 2015-05-25T20:41:09.000Z

This is brilliant. So true.

Open_Mike · 2015-05-26T17:47:01.000Z

Away from OT right now so can’t get all exact techy, but 1: look up gain control for pickup machine and 2: Can’t explain right now but I always go right into overdub, I think there are many ways to do this, dig deeper, read manual, rock it…

oldgearguy · 2015-05-26T17:50:27.000Z

[quote=““Open Mike””]
Away from OT right now so can’t get all exact techy, but 1: look up gain control for pickup machine and 2: Can’t explain right now but I always go right into overdub, I think there are many ways to do this, dig deeper, read manual, rock it…
[/quote]

ONE2 mode for pickup machines will allow you to go directly from recording to overdubbing (version 1.25 manual page 56).

There is a gain mode that allows you to vary the gain of the pickup loop, but overdubbing is disabled. It’s been a while since I played with PU machines, but there may be a way to drop the loop when overdubbing.

condit79 · 2015-05-26T21:04:08.000Z

ok, so going to overdub directly IS easily done. But just controlling gain with a knob turn isn’t the same as having the background audio constantly reduce as layers are added in regards to feedback.

After hours of looping last night, I realized also that there isn’t any meaningful way to slave the octatrack while overdubbing. Seriously, the rest of it I could put up with but that’s a massive limitation. even roland loopers get that bit right.

Zymos · 2015-05-26T23:00:46.000Z

Actually, it’s only the most recent Roland looper that slaves to MIDI clock, all the other Loop Stations do not.

oldgearguy · 2015-05-26T23:05:13.000Z

Agree on both the volume issue and the slave issue. When I asked Elektron about the failure to over dub when slaved, the response was - make it the master.

When I pointed out that I have 2 OTs and both can’t be the master, I never got a reply back…

condit79 · 2015-05-26T23:34:08.000Z

well there are plenty of loopers that sync to midi, Zymos. Look at the link in my second post for a partially complete list. It’s just wild to me that looping has somehow gone mostly backwards in functionality since the echoplex. I won’t stop using my octatrack but it’s kind of huge bummer that Elektron seems to not want to address a VERY basic function in the sync. And feedback, if you’re doing a whole set of looping really makes the difference. It means you don’t actually have to clear channels of audio at all and would just be able to have a seamless layered looping set.

Rusty · 2015-05-26T23:35:47.000Z

""oldgearguy"":

When I pointed out that I have 2 OTs and both can’t be the master, I never got a reply back…

I’m sorry, but this made me piss myself laughing. Sounds like some issues I’ve had…

Zymos · 2015-05-26T23:42:15.000Z

[quote=“” condit79""]
well there are plenty of loopers that sync to midi, Zymos. Look at the link in my second post for a partially complete list. It’s just wild to me that looping has somehow gone mostly backwards in functionality since the echoplex. I won’t stop using my octatrack but it’s kind of huge bummer that Elektron seems to not want to address a VERY basic function in the sync. And feedback, if you’re doing a whole set of looping really makes the difference. It means you don’t actually have to clear channels of audio at all and would just be able to have a seamless layered looping set.
[/quote]

You said “even Roland got that bit right” .
I correctly pointed out that only their latest, the RC 505, can actually sync to clock, none of the other RC models have that capability.
So,yeah, they eventually got that bit right, but it took them about a decade to get there…

oldgearguy · 2015-05-27T01:01:27.000Z

to be 100% fair to Elektron I did look through all my correspondence (the original bug report was filed in the spring of 2012) and much much later (1 year plus) I did receive a reply that summed up was “it’s too hard”.

Can you timestretch while recording into flex/static machines? I think so…

Here is part of it:

The reason why the OVERDUB does not work is the TIMESTRETCH algorythm does not work properly when the incoming clock is not 100 percent stable. This is because TIMESTRETCH follows the clock and if the clock is jumping around, it messes up.

and

When OT is synced externally, the playback of Timestretched samples work as they should do. When the external BPM is changed, the timestretched audio will follow.

Pickup machine Overdub is not allowed if the OT is externally synced I am afraid. Imagine you are timestretching the audio to an jittery clock while trying to overdub it, it just does not work.

tstu102 · 2015-06-23T19:02:36.000Z

Wait so, after I’ve made a loop with a pickup machine and I stop the Octatrack, restart it, the loop no longer plays.

How do I re-trigger the loop, but in-time ?

Thanks!

Lazos · 2015-06-24T00:48:32.000Z

""oldgearguy"":

[quote=“Open Mike”]Away from OT right now so can’t get all exact techy, but 1: look up gain control for pickup machine and 2: Can’t explain right now but I always go right into overdub, I think there are many ways to do this, dig deeper, read manual, rock it…

ONE2 mode for pickup machines will allow you to go directly from recording to overdubbing (version 1.25 manual page 56).

There is a gain mode that allows you to vary the gain of the pickup loop, but overdubbing is disabled. It’s been a while since I played with PU machines, but there may be a way to drop the loop when overdubbing.[/quote]
Regarding the gain control (not “gain mode”), this absolutely allows “loop ageing” or what the op calls a feedback control. You can overdub and manipulate this parameter to get the same effect.

twyce · 2015-06-26T08:59:10.000Z

I use the 45000 EHX with its dedicated control pedal. Almost perfect, just miss the time-stretch.

I would like to use the OCTA to downsize my config, and have the timestretch + effect on every track. I would use two or three tracks for looping guitar and keyboard.

I tried to use the flex machines + ram recording, with fix 64 steps (found on Cuckoo video), but … you know … overdub … blablabla…

reeloy · 2015-06-26T15:09:03.000Z

…check on pick up machines here again…

and you’ll find the biggest rants 'bout the ot of all issues to rant about…

don’t go for hints like …dig deeper here…

we’re simply not there yet…and it took me half a year now to accept, that that’s where it’s at…
and will remain…at least for long…

be aware of the fact, the ot is not a looper in first place and common sense…

get used to the real time sampling capacities…they’re amazing and without comparism…
that’s not the same, right, but a massive tool and once your’re over that., it will take u to new terrains u never thought about before…

postrockr · 2015-06-27T06:57:50.000Z

Wait…I’m so confused now…i’m new to the forum. I’m a recent Analog Keys user and I seriously want to get an Octatrack for exactly this: ambient looping that acts as multiple really long delays. However, there’s conflicting info on this thread on what looked to be a solution on the “Pickup Machines - Who is using them?” thread…I asked for clarification there and I’ll ask again here…

Here’s how I see if from my research: with the pickup machine, the overdub gain can be reduced, so that will decay your loops. Straight up. I don’t see how this is different than feedback…okay, so it’s not HPF your loops like a Strymon El Capistan or EHX 16 second delay, but that’s okay, it’ll sound very modern and digital, I can handle that.

I’m also under the impression that you can set a record trig so it will always engage the overdubbing as the long loop ends and it starts up again. You can set fades so there are no clicks…but most ambient performers do swells so this seems like a non-issue.

Apparently the main problem that was pointed out on the other tread is that: the main Pickup Machine is mastering the tempo… That would be great to have an option to deactivate that function.

ANSWER: You can get around this by using the record options that sync the start and end of the record process. When this is set to full bars then whatever u capture will stay in time with the master tempo.

Seriously hoping for clarification from someone here. To be honest, it does look like the Octatrack is the perfect ambient looper…am I missing something???

reeloy · 2015-06-27T09:29:55.000Z

…i tried to use them…

and i stopped doing so…

they’re not really doing what to expect…

they’re a great little add on option to fool around with and produce quite some sonic mayhem…
they can give the instrumental player the option to let the ot join and follow you once in first place, like a another bandmember…what no other machine can do like this…

but beyond that, they’re nowhere near to work like the simple overall looper device u could expect here and even to the certain level where it’s at right now, we clearly got to point out…they’re buggy…

but as said…if you go back one step…and dive into the realtime resampling options ot does offer in it’s basic dna, you got the uncomparable catch on the fly options again…

but all these remain always one more step away before taking further realtime action in direct comparism to classic looper concepts…

rock solid pick up machines making the ot also a simple no brainer roland like looper device is NOT the case by now…

and i hardly doubt, we’re getting there some day…
but i was really ranting bout this in my early expectations and experiences with this machine here and now i’m not really asking anymore for it…
on the ot, there’s always another way to get along…

postrockr · 2015-06-27T15:48:05.000Z

Honestly, your responses really don’t shed any light on how the proposed workflow DOESNT work…lots of people have pointed this workflow out on other threads. I don’t get what the issue is with a simple record trig setup for continuous overdubbing? Simple question, hoping for a simple answer.

If it doesn’t work, what exactly is the problem? I’m sorry to be so blunt, but I’m getting the impression that some users on this forum arent connecting the pieces…the first indication is the very first post where the thread starter complained about not having feedback control when there is clearly control over overdub gain, which is the same…

Sorry if I come across rude, but there seems to be a huge gab in the abilities and knowledge of elektron users on here, leading to confusion and misinformation.

Maybe you guys are right and this doesn’t work…I just want to know why it doesn’t and how the octatrack behaves with a simultaneous record and playback trig setup for long continuously overdubbing recording with the older overdubs being gradually attenuated out…

Thanks.

reeloy · 2015-06-28T00:35:14.000Z

…so, what is long and continoussly…exactly…

when i was going for longest possible options of loopfrrame to catch with pick ups…

that was never feeling long enough for me…

continoussly overdubbing is always for each performance a once made no way back from here now til death decision only…with a clear maxxed out fast horizon feel…

no cleaning buffer on the run possible…no re entry…to the spot or going mayhem…not much stairs between…

having more than one in action at the same time was never straightforward without buggy shadows…whether linked to each other nor independently… and never really handable at once just in ease in normal just catch the phrase looper terms…

you got a certain way of working with it in your mind, that won’t work out as u expect it…
but u will find a way to proceed with what ur aiming for anyway and ending with some way flex recorders involved…
it will suit u, make u happy, will do the job ur checking on right now and won’t be that looper thing either…

once things for sure…you can catch incoming audio on the fly, transform anfd treat it in a million ways and spit it out in realtime again with an ot, the bermuda triangle sampler…

and no, and sorry to dissapoint u still…the pickup machines don’t make it a simple, rocksolid no brainer looper in a common musician sense…can’t nail it more down than this…