Pickup machines-sorely missing functions

oldgearguy · 2015-05-26T23:05:13.000Z

Agree on both the volume issue and the slave issue. When I asked Elektron about the failure to over dub when slaved, the response was - make it the master.

When I pointed out that I have 2 OTs and both can’t be the master, I never got a reply back…

condit79 · 2015-05-26T23:34:08.000Z

well there are plenty of loopers that sync to midi, Zymos. Look at the link in my second post for a partially complete list. It’s just wild to me that looping has somehow gone mostly backwards in functionality since the echoplex. I won’t stop using my octatrack but it’s kind of huge bummer that Elektron seems to not want to address a VERY basic function in the sync. And feedback, if you’re doing a whole set of looping really makes the difference. It means you don’t actually have to clear channels of audio at all and would just be able to have a seamless layered looping set.

Rusty · 2015-05-26T23:35:47.000Z

""oldgearguy"":

When I pointed out that I have 2 OTs and both can’t be the master, I never got a reply back…

I’m sorry, but this made me piss myself laughing. Sounds like some issues I’ve had…

Zymos · 2015-05-26T23:42:15.000Z

[quote=“” condit79""]
well there are plenty of loopers that sync to midi, Zymos. Look at the link in my second post for a partially complete list. It’s just wild to me that looping has somehow gone mostly backwards in functionality since the echoplex. I won’t stop using my octatrack but it’s kind of huge bummer that Elektron seems to not want to address a VERY basic function in the sync. And feedback, if you’re doing a whole set of looping really makes the difference. It means you don’t actually have to clear channels of audio at all and would just be able to have a seamless layered looping set.
[/quote]

You said “even Roland got that bit right” .
I correctly pointed out that only their latest, the RC 505, can actually sync to clock, none of the other RC models have that capability.
So,yeah, they eventually got that bit right, but it took them about a decade to get there…

oldgearguy · 2015-05-27T01:01:27.000Z

to be 100% fair to Elektron I did look through all my correspondence (the original bug report was filed in the spring of 2012) and much much later (1 year plus) I did receive a reply that summed up was “it’s too hard”.

Can you timestretch while recording into flex/static machines? I think so…

Here is part of it:

The reason why the OVERDUB does not work is the TIMESTRETCH algorythm does not work properly when the incoming clock is not 100 percent stable. This is because TIMESTRETCH follows the clock and if the clock is jumping around, it messes up.

and

When OT is synced externally, the playback of Timestretched samples work as they should do. When the external BPM is changed, the timestretched audio will follow.

Pickup machine Overdub is not allowed if the OT is externally synced I am afraid. Imagine you are timestretching the audio to an jittery clock while trying to overdub it, it just does not work.

tstu102 · 2015-06-23T19:02:36.000Z

Wait so, after I’ve made a loop with a pickup machine and I stop the Octatrack, restart it, the loop no longer plays.

How do I re-trigger the loop, but in-time ?

Thanks!

Lazos · 2015-06-24T00:48:32.000Z

""oldgearguy"":

[quote=“Open Mike”]Away from OT right now so can’t get all exact techy, but 1: look up gain control for pickup machine and 2: Can’t explain right now but I always go right into overdub, I think there are many ways to do this, dig deeper, read manual, rock it…

ONE2 mode for pickup machines will allow you to go directly from recording to overdubbing (version 1.25 manual page 56).

There is a gain mode that allows you to vary the gain of the pickup loop, but overdubbing is disabled. It’s been a while since I played with PU machines, but there may be a way to drop the loop when overdubbing.[/quote]
Regarding the gain control (not “gain mode”), this absolutely allows “loop ageing” or what the op calls a feedback control. You can overdub and manipulate this parameter to get the same effect.

twyce · 2015-06-26T08:59:10.000Z

I use the 45000 EHX with its dedicated control pedal. Almost perfect, just miss the time-stretch.

I would like to use the OCTA to downsize my config, and have the timestretch + effect on every track. I would use two or three tracks for looping guitar and keyboard.

I tried to use the flex machines + ram recording, with fix 64 steps (found on Cuckoo video), but … you know … overdub … blablabla…

reeloy · 2015-06-26T15:09:03.000Z

…check on pick up machines here again…

and you’ll find the biggest rants 'bout the ot of all issues to rant about…

don’t go for hints like …dig deeper here…

we’re simply not there yet…and it took me half a year now to accept, that that’s where it’s at…
and will remain…at least for long…

be aware of the fact, the ot is not a looper in first place and common sense…

get used to the real time sampling capacities…they’re amazing and without comparism…
that’s not the same, right, but a massive tool and once your’re over that., it will take u to new terrains u never thought about before…

postrockr · 2015-06-27T06:57:50.000Z

Wait…I’m so confused now…i’m new to the forum. I’m a recent Analog Keys user and I seriously want to get an Octatrack for exactly this: ambient looping that acts as multiple really long delays. However, there’s conflicting info on this thread on what looked to be a solution on the “Pickup Machines - Who is using them?” thread…I asked for clarification there and I’ll ask again here…

Here’s how I see if from my research: with the pickup machine, the overdub gain can be reduced, so that will decay your loops. Straight up. I don’t see how this is different than feedback…okay, so it’s not HPF your loops like a Strymon El Capistan or EHX 16 second delay, but that’s okay, it’ll sound very modern and digital, I can handle that.

I’m also under the impression that you can set a record trig so it will always engage the overdubbing as the long loop ends and it starts up again. You can set fades so there are no clicks…but most ambient performers do swells so this seems like a non-issue.

Apparently the main problem that was pointed out on the other tread is that: the main Pickup Machine is mastering the tempo… That would be great to have an option to deactivate that function.

ANSWER: You can get around this by using the record options that sync the start and end of the record process. When this is set to full bars then whatever u capture will stay in time with the master tempo.

Seriously hoping for clarification from someone here. To be honest, it does look like the Octatrack is the perfect ambient looper…am I missing something???

reeloy · 2015-06-27T09:29:55.000Z

…i tried to use them…

and i stopped doing so…

they’re not really doing what to expect…

they’re a great little add on option to fool around with and produce quite some sonic mayhem…
they can give the instrumental player the option to let the ot join and follow you once in first place, like a another bandmember…what no other machine can do like this…

but beyond that, they’re nowhere near to work like the simple overall looper device u could expect here and even to the certain level where it’s at right now, we clearly got to point out…they’re buggy…

but as said…if you go back one step…and dive into the realtime resampling options ot does offer in it’s basic dna, you got the uncomparable catch on the fly options again…

but all these remain always one more step away before taking further realtime action in direct comparism to classic looper concepts…

rock solid pick up machines making the ot also a simple no brainer roland like looper device is NOT the case by now…

and i hardly doubt, we’re getting there some day…
but i was really ranting bout this in my early expectations and experiences with this machine here and now i’m not really asking anymore for it…
on the ot, there’s always another way to get along…

postrockr · 2015-06-27T15:48:05.000Z

Honestly, your responses really don’t shed any light on how the proposed workflow DOESNT work…lots of people have pointed this workflow out on other threads. I don’t get what the issue is with a simple record trig setup for continuous overdubbing? Simple question, hoping for a simple answer.

If it doesn’t work, what exactly is the problem? I’m sorry to be so blunt, but I’m getting the impression that some users on this forum arent connecting the pieces…the first indication is the very first post where the thread starter complained about not having feedback control when there is clearly control over overdub gain, which is the same…

Sorry if I come across rude, but there seems to be a huge gab in the abilities and knowledge of elektron users on here, leading to confusion and misinformation.

Maybe you guys are right and this doesn’t work…I just want to know why it doesn’t and how the octatrack behaves with a simultaneous record and playback trig setup for long continuously overdubbing recording with the older overdubs being gradually attenuated out…

Thanks.

reeloy · 2015-06-28T00:35:14.000Z

…so, what is long and continoussly…exactly…

when i was going for longest possible options of loopfrrame to catch with pick ups…

that was never feeling long enough for me…

continoussly overdubbing is always for each performance a once made no way back from here now til death decision only…with a clear maxxed out fast horizon feel…

no cleaning buffer on the run possible…no re entry…to the spot or going mayhem…not much stairs between…

having more than one in action at the same time was never straightforward without buggy shadows…whether linked to each other nor independently… and never really handable at once just in ease in normal just catch the phrase looper terms…

you got a certain way of working with it in your mind, that won’t work out as u expect it…
but u will find a way to proceed with what ur aiming for anyway and ending with some way flex recorders involved…
it will suit u, make u happy, will do the job ur checking on right now and won’t be that looper thing either…

once things for sure…you can catch incoming audio on the fly, transform anfd treat it in a million ways and spit it out in realtime again with an ot, the bermuda triangle sampler…

and no, and sorry to dissapoint u still…the pickup machines don’t make it a simple, rocksolid no brainer looper in a common musician sense…can’t nail it more down than this…

Lazos · 2015-06-28T01:59:42.000Z

Everyones’ mileage does seem to vary when it comes to pickup machines. Certain things have frustrated me, but all things considered, the OT has seriously amazing looper cababilities (nevermind that it’s also a whole other type of sampling/sequencing universe).

To recap the two basic critiques that the OP of this thread brought forward:

Lack of looper feedback control. I hope the answer is clear for everyone: The octatrack does have feedback control of loops in pickup machines. It is called the “gain” parameter on the main device playback page. For those that still don’t believe this is the same, read the manual again and actually use your machine. It works.
The pickup machines can’t go directly from recording to overdub mode. This is not true. They definitely can go directly to overdub mode easily. Also, this is in the manual for those that bother to read it.

I’ve personally used the Octatrack to record long loops of stringed instruments and then have the gain control in pickup machines act like a really long delay to create nice long ambient textures that slowly fade as other overdubs are recorded.

The other main critique that was mentioned earlier in this thread is valid: The OT pickup machines can’t overdub when the OT is a midi slave. If this is important to you (there are workarounds) then it is a consideration. An earlier poster even quoted an email from Elektron discussing why this doesn’t work.

IMHO, the Octatrack is still one of the most formidable loopers out there and has some things that, as far as I know, no other looping device has:

A reverse loop parameter that allows you to ping pong style reverse and forward play your loops.
Allows you to switch from a pickup machine recording loops on a track to that same track having a flex machine on it (by switching parts) and then laying trigs and sequencing the pickup loop for more sound design capabilities.
It allows one to utilise the incredible power of scenes to affect your pickup machine loops (most dramatically when those loops are subsequently running in a sequenced flex machine).
It allows potentially up to 8 discrete stereo looper tracks (only software like Ableton or Mobius have the potential for that many tracks. I don’t count the Looperlative LP-1, as it’s not available anymore).
In addition to being a capable looper, it is it’s own sampling/sequencing/FX processing universe!

No, the OT is NOT perfect as a looper. No device is. Many posters have complained that it just doesn’t do their favourite thing. Oh well. Try something else. I did. I bought an OT, tried it, sold it, and I’m going to buy another, because I know what I want to do with it now and I have a very clear idea of what it can do.

Open_Mike · 2015-06-28T02:54:18.000Z

My dig deeper in manual reference was serious, both of OPs wanted features work for me. The part I didn’t realize was that he’s using OT in slave mode. I use OT in master and the gain knob works as a feedback knob, and my pickups always go straight into overdub mode unless I press cd. Sorry, my OTs been in storage since April (a crime, I know) so I can’t get into the details. Just want to let know that it can work in Master mode. All I do is loop and sample live audio and use the OT in place of a Mac with main stage. Supper stoked about it and having too much fun!!

Lazos · 2015-06-28T03:39:49.000Z

You know, I guess I didn’t get that the OP was trying to overdub and use the gain parameter while midi slaved. That would make loop ageing via the gain parameter not work. Yes, otherwise, it works fine.

postrockr · 2015-06-28T05:32:47.000Z

""Lazos"":

You know, I guess I didn’t get that the OP was trying to overdub and use the gain parameter while midi slaved. That would make loop ageing via the gain parameter not work. Yes, otherwise, it works fine.

Hi Lazos, thanks so much for taking the time to answer the question directly. I couldnt figure out where all the confusion was coming from since this functionality seems so basic! Also, my Analog Keys has been a breeze to learn and very intuitive, so I couldn’t accept that Elektron would miss the boat so badly.
What I imagine is the source of all the confusion and misleading information is the varied background/experience level of Octatrack users. I can’t imagine having to tackle learning this machine without first having spent years and years on so many other pieces of gear (reel to reels, guitar effects pedals, DAWs, many many analog and digital synths, etc).
Anyways, now that I know that this workflow is possible and simple, I’ll be selling a Strymon El Capistan and Fulltone Tube Tape Echo to purchase an Octatrack very soon! This will be a live ambient looping dream, with up to 8 tracks of layers swelling in and out! Thanks again.

Lazos · 2015-06-28T18:57:44.000Z

No worries, mate. The only other thing you might consider is there is no specific undo feature on pickup machines. But you can replace quite easily. For some, no undo is a deal breaker in spite of the vast and unique looping/sequencing possibilities that the OT offers. For me, plenty of rehearsal and concentration on my musicianship and all the other features the OT offers more than make up for no undo.

RonF · 2015-07-06T23:40:50.000Z

Yea, I use the OT extensively as a stereo looper. It works great in every respect (once you have a Project set-up to formulate the OT AS a Looper)…EXCEPT that it can’t be a midi slave. But if you’re going to let it be the master…its amazing. And sure its got loop aging/feedback via the Gain control in the pickup machines. And sure its goes straight to overdub mode automatically! What I love about it is that it quantizes everything to its sequencer. So, if OT is your master clock in your rig (which it needs to be)…everything syncs up to it VERY well. Its quite easy to make long ambient looping arrangements. Simply press record just before the next beat marker…and it will punch in automatically in perfect sync. Because you can set the loop length (64 steps on the master loop, but multiples up to 256 or more on slave loops), it will punch out automatically in perfect sync with your entire rig.

MY only wish is that there is a way to make a MASTER loop (the first loop) longer than 64 steps WITHOUT causing the OT to automatically adjust its master tempo. SINCE the OT is required to be the master clock when using it as a conventional looper device…then I don’t want to have it suddenly jumping in tempo to line up with my master loop. It just causes all my other external gear (drum machines, arpeggiators, etc), that’s synced up to that master clock, to jump in tempo as well. Not musical at all!

I’d rather have the ability to insert 128 steps, rather than MAX, on the master loop!. You can allocate the memory for 128, even 256 steps easily. Why can’t you pre-assign the loop length of the master loop to more than 64? Your slave loops can easily be 128 or 256 steps (setting the length control to X2 or X4) and stay within the memory allocation, no problem. But why not with the Master loop?

And why must the OT automatically adjust tempo to fit the loop length of the master if it exceeds 64 steps? In the original Electron tutorial video for the Pickup Machines, its shows that you can MANUALLY sync the sequencer to the master loop. But in practice, and in carefully reading the manual regarding pickup machines, it seems that the OT AUTOMATICALLY makes this adjustment…WHEN THE MASTER LOOP IS >64 STEPS…and there seems no way to defeat it! It should be user selectable! A guitarist who is using the master loop to define a tempo “freehand” will love that feature. A synthesist or DJ trying to keep a bunch of gear in sync will loathe that feature! Two legitimate uses…why is it not user-selectable?

Most of the key to using the OT for long loops is in the Memory Configuration. Its best, for this purpose, just to turn Dynamic Recorders to ON…and NOT to allocate ANY memory per Track Recorder (this is for using all 8 tracks as pick up machines…a true Looper device). There’s more than enough memory on board, even at 24 bit recording, to have up over 256 steps on 7 out of 8 tracks (because for all practical purposes, the 8th track -really the first track- is the master, and it must be only 64 steps for some odd reason).

mapmap · 2016-11-11T04:56:08.427Z

I just wish they would do two (simple) things that would greatly improve the way I used pickup machines.

Allow the user to turn OFF time stretching. every other machine allows you to do it. Pickup machines should too.
Allow the user to turn off the master/slave auto BPM features in pickup machines. Not everyone wants synchronized loops and If you are wanting to make asynchronous loops, this really fucks everything up. Also automatically jumping to a different BPM has a whole host of other problems.