Overbridge much too quiet?


#65

You could not use overbridge and record each track independently via audio .

I’m quite sure what overbridge is doing is easier than that. Adding a plug-in on each channel is much easier than messing with mute/record/audio leads/config audio in / save files / reimport them and then use daw.


#66

This argument is unrelated to source signals, you are talking about mixing. I was taught to mix by reducing volumes which I’ve done since the early 90s. You need levels to mix down from, this is impossible with DT, it is currently impossible to get levels above -20db on my system, it’s ludicrous makes no sense and is not inline with any other audio gear. No disrespect to you personally, but it’s frustrating to see this discussed in a mixing context when it is a source level problem. Headroom is created by mixing, not by source levels and such low levels are not the norm in audio gear or the plugin world. Having usable levels will not reduce headroom, you just turn the levels down to get all the headroom/dynamic range you need.


#67

Sorry to say but that’s not correct. This doesn’t differ from source volumes at all.

This is why we record at 24bit in the digital domain. At 24bit the signal to noise ratio is so big that it’s really not needed to record at loud levels. You could be recording at -24db and that still would be fine. Better yet, for recording things like vocals and guitar for instance this is preferred as to make 100% sure no clipping will occur. You can then higher the recorded signal in level to your preferred mixing levels. Via utility or on the waveform itself. Again, recording at loud levels isn’t needed. Other gear doesn’t work differently actually since it’s all how loud you record stuff. Elektron chose to Max the input gain to -12 db, because otherwise clipping at the master output could occur when multi tracking… You need that headroom even when recording.

Recording and mixing in the analog domain is a bit different.

There is a gigantic and very interesting topic about this on gearslutz by the way


#68

Again 2 different things, the DT is already in the digital domain, it’s dynamics are already set within the machine itself and these streams of numbers are directly transferred to the DAW via a digital stream. You need the dynamic range for mixing the signals and it should be available at levels that are workable within the DAW. It’s up to me to create dynamics not an intentionally lowered level. It’s not normal and comparing to Microphones and pre-amps bears no relation to the fact that the volumes are too low to work with. Currently there is no point in having track volume levels as they have to be maxed to get as much level as possible or as others have said, boosted via some other means. Even summing all of the outputs gets nowhere near -12.

I’m glad it works for you, but these arguments are just insulting to all of us that want workable levels, you can still have what you want by lowering track levels and the rest of us can be happy too. The DN and A4 have much more realistic levels which are workable in comparison so it isn’t Even consistent across the Elektron machines and is specifically the DT which has this problem.

I’m not interested in the debate, I’d just like the option to have workable source levels instead of being told that it’s wrong to want such a thing. There are many people on here that want the same.


#69

This is correct, and that is why the headroom is so big. Try a normalized sample + resonating filter + overdrive + make up gain on the compressor…

I think we can make it about 6dB louder, but more than that, people will complain about digital clipping instead.

When using you audio interface you are using the input gain in the audio interface. Here you dont have that and it’s replaced by the gain tool in your DAW.


#70

Sorry to hear you feel insulted. It’s not my intention at all. Tried to explain some things because I thought it might help.

Let’s just agree to disagree I guess then. :slight_smile:


#71

There is no noise to hide coming from USB, so you can use a gain plugin, if you must, to boost with no issue.

adding: (if yer using a DAW :slight_smile: )
adding to add: digital boost


#72

Perhaps the wrong word, there was nothing personal, it’s just frustrating:)


#73

Thanks, but why is it so much quieter than the DN or A4? Is it just my system? I just don’t understand how anyone can be happy with it as it stands. This fills me with dismay that it’s not going to be addressed, it should at least be inline with the other boxes.


#74

Yes of course but that could be provided from the plugin. It isn’t about degradation it’s about working source volume.


#75

I think it will be addressed and trimmed. All of the units have different internal headroom depending on circuit design / DSP design. A more resonating filter needs more than a less resonating one, different overdrive gains differently e.t.c.

What I’m trying to say is that the dynamic range is huge and that needs to be taken into consideration. On an audio interface you can usually adjust the input gain. Here that could be an extra knob in the OB interface, but that will make the exact same thing as gaining it in your DAW.


#76

Using AH MKI as an interface in OB – I get the feeling that the internal headroom is trimmed so that a MAX signal before clipping on the meters in AH corresponds to this -12/-18dB digital sweet spot in a DAW that others were speaking on above?


#77

Yes I understand all of that already, but when you have to switch all channel volumes and even DAW faders to full and still not get an acceptable level it’s not right. Comparing it to the TI for example which has 16 channels and is perfectly workable and never clips. I would expect the same from the DT, it’s on the verge of clipping paranoia it seems :slight_smile:

Thanks for the response and I’m glad it will be looked at, a simple global multiplier would certainly stop me whinging about it. Aside from that I’m happy.


#78

I would also suggest saving a template. I do this semi-frequently, as my workflow and instruments change. And with that, varyings input levels. Just throw a gain boost on each overbridge channel, adjust to your liking, then save as a template. It only takes a minute to setup, and it will be ready to go each you open the template. It may not be the fix you are looking for right now, but it is a quick and easy fix.


#79

I would appreciate this tweak, as I think many others would too. Seems like it would strike a balance.


#80

It just hit me that I’ve just told a meseeks that the problem isn’t solved and so I take that back, a gang of meseeks hunting me down is the last thing I need in my life :slight_smile:


#81

WHICH…should be low so you can mix properly.
The soundcard or playback DOES have a volume level that can be turned up. Recording hot kills the mix.

Ive helped, may i die now?


#82

There is no recording hot involved, this simply is too low a digital signal coming from the plugin via digital USB, there are no dynamics involved at all. The dynamic processing was done before the signal left the DT. It’s simply a digital signal that needs boosting to be in the same level domain as all the other signals in the DAW without having to use an external means of increasing the volume.

I’m starting to feel that maybe it’s unique to my system or box, it seems the only explanation of why it isn’t a glaringly obvious issue for everyone. I’ve made my living for most of the last 25 years from music, DSP and sound design and still do, I do understand how things work.

The discussed 6db boost would make all the difference. As I said before, no issues with the other 2 OB boxes, just the DT. I’m not meaning to insult or argue with anyone, just explaining that it is an annoying issue which is unrelated to dynamics whatsoever and could be easily solved with a simple multiplier in the plugin. Again I’m happy for people that are happy with it such as yourself and Dave, I wish I was too :).

It’s just frustrating to see it dismissed as a mixing domain issue/necessity which not the case. That ends before it leaves the box, it’s presented as a digital signal inside the DAW exactly like a VST Multi-timbal Instrument. Of course in the box itself the signals are at lower levels that will never clip, but that signal inside the DAW should scale into a sensible working DAW level. At that point it’s just a source for the mixing domain the same as a multi-channel VSTi. It is then in then the mixer strip that represents the headroom before clipping which is why boosting using a VST boost of some kind will not clip before the DAW does. It’s our responsibility to manage gain staging as part of the mixing process. Imagine if Kontakt for example needed a 3rd party level booster on its individual channels…

Perhaps the way I use it is also a factor, I use the 8 individual outputs and only use the master for fx returns. I use it to record straight to individual Stems without processing. I usually have over 30 channels of OB, Virus USB and regular audio ins and in this situation it’s extremely noticeable and painful how quiet the DT source is. They are not even visible in the recorded WAVs.

Anyway I’ll shut up about it, hopefully we will be given this option to boost it in the future. I never imagined OB would become a central part of my rig, aside from this it’s a revelation.

Now back to the meseeks side of things, yes it’s solved!!! :slight_smile:


#83

You might find this interesting (especially the OP): https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/463010-reason-most-itb-mixes-don-t-sound-good-analog-mixes-restored.html


#84

I have one. Its fine :wink: