OT throughput mixer audio quality?

secretmusic · 2016-09-14T16:13:02.603Z

Every A/D D/A conversion does “something” to the sound. To think otherwise is being foolish and a bit ignorant. High end studios invest thousands of dollars in high end conversion, for a reason. The OT’s converters are no Prism converters, let’s just keep it at that.
If you run a Volca synth through the OT, the problem is virtually non existent, but if you run a Voyager through the OT, there will be a noticeable “difference”. It’s difficult to quantify, and it’s also difficult to notice, depending on your monitoring system, your gain staging, and the material being fed through. You’re going from a purely analog signal to a digital interpretation of that signal, with all sorts of artefacts being introduced. Of course there will be a discrepancy.
What I think is a more valid point of discussion, is if users of the OT are “happy” with its sound. If most are, then the OT converters are fine, but, as pointed out by many, there is a sometimes noticeable “squashing” of the sound. Maybe it has to do with gain staging in certain cases, but Elektron are not helping by creating devices with no gain staging metering. We’re left with our ears, and feelings.
As it’s been pointed out before, certain sources actually benefit from being fed through the OT (weak digital sources), while others just sound better when running on their own channel on a nice mixer. Context (live or studio) is also a big part of the decision. For a live show, i see no issue with running sources through the OT, it’s extremely convenient and allows for crazy manipulation. For studio use, and if you’re looking for the most high end conversion possible, running sounds through a dedicated, pristine converter will yield better results, in most cases.

I use to be a very active member of the forums, but unfortunately, a few toxic users have all but ruined it for me and many others I know. When people can actually insult each other openly without being moderated, it shows a complete lack of love from the makers of this forum, and it makes me sad to even read most threads. In any case, I think the discussion at hand is very interesting, and deserves to be talked about in a civilised and grown up manner Cheers !

avantronica · 2016-09-14T16:46:00.980Z

secretmusic:

I use to be a very active member of the forums, but unfortunately, a few toxic users have all but ruined it for me and many others I know

Since Elektronauts 2.0 started you will be very hard pushed to find a single example of open toxicity that was not challenged - the moderation is very active and the tone of the discourse is generally very positive and solution focussed - everyone is encouraged to take a more progressive stance with a view to adding to a discussion rather than just taking sides in polarising debates … disagreeing is good, it’s the manner of the disagreement which sometimes needed moderating - the example above in this old thread resulted in a self-exclusion, but it would not be tolerated now

secretmusic:

it shows a complete lack of love from the makers of this forum, and it makes me sad to even read most threads

with respect … this would sound a lot less like an entrenched opinion if you were able to substantiate it with an example from any recent threads (let alone most)

individual posts can be anonymously flagged for review

positive contributions are encouraged, as detailed in these general guidelines

nfim · 2016-09-14T17:04:34.938Z

Come back! We miss your knowledge and awesome vid tutorials!

secretmusic · 2016-09-14T18:33:38.350Z

no worries, i was referring to this thread, where people are telling each other to f*uck off without holding back. So this thread is a perfect example, in fact, of exactly what i’m saying. Anyways, this is not the point of this thread, and I personally would rather stay on topic. Thank you for pointing out that posts can be flagged, i was not aware of that and will make good use of that feature, if necessary

secretmusic · 2016-09-14T18:35:40.762Z

Ha thank you, i miss the exchanges too ! I’m setting up a studio in Berlin at the moment, once it’s all up and running, I will get started on the videos again, it’s been too long Cheers !

Stickhit · 2016-09-14T18:45:25.587Z

Technically speaking differentiating the signal from a Volca and a Voyager does not really stand up because the OT can only accept analogue signals and the output of the Volca is analogue.
Whatever limitation the OT may have with regard to fidelity will affect any signal fed into the OT. Obviously if the limitation only affects a specific frequency range a signal that does not include that specific range will not be affected.

josker · 2016-09-14T18:46:09.310Z

I too think that the place is very different from what it was a while ago. And yeah, your tutorials are missed

But as for the sound quality – am I very wrong in thinking that a knowledgeable person could very easily verify the amount of changes the OT’s AD/DA conversion inflicts on the sound? I often enjoy arguing over matters of opinion, but to me this doesn’t seem like one.

I mean, record a digital sample through the AD/DA of an OT and some other revered box, analyze the results. If I were savvy enough to do an objective, error-free A/B test – OT versus a(nother) set of high-end converters – I’d do it myself.

avantronica · 2016-09-14T19:09:26.733Z

secretmusic:

Thank you for pointing out that posts can be flagged, i was not aware of that and will make good use of that feature, if necessary

Okay - I see you flagged a post from 20months ago - as i mentioned, that’s the user that had left (dramatically), had since returned, had further discussions with the current mods concerning language etc - to be fair, we can’t go back through the years of postings (nor know what contemporaneous Moderation happened), but we can take down anything obviously offensive that wasn’t swept up and deal with any current postings

Things are different now we have migrated to a better platform for Elektronauts 2.0, the more active Moderation isn’t for all, but we do our best and we represent a broad range of views and try to be balanced and keep things genial, positive and on topic

nfim · 2016-09-14T19:09:50.273Z

We might as well. I’m happy to do some tests but my only interface other than the OT is a focusrite saffire 24, clean but not really pro-grade.

Stickhit, I was just thinking the same thing. Probably folks just care more about preserving the signal quality of something like a voyager or tempest more than volcas, which are potentially providing less ‘crucial’ elements of the track.

Secretmusic, keep in mind all the bickering in this thread was posted over a year ago and lots has changed since then.

stutech · 2016-09-14T22:23:59.989Z

Good point. Isn’t the OT recording @ 44.1kHz? I’d imagine a Moog Voyager to produce frequencies way above 22kHz which, while not being “heard” that much, can change our perception of the sounds.

Stickhit · 2016-09-15T11:21:26.864Z

There are many things that can affect our perception of sound (e.g. visual stimulus, age, health, mood, fatigue, personal biases etc.). I suspect that frequencies outside the human audio range are the least likely to affect sound perception, though they may upset your cat.

stutech · 2016-09-15T11:25:53.128Z

I respectfully disagree. Human hearing doesn’t just cut off @ 20k, it gradually rolls off (also the exact cutoff point and slope vary from person to person). Depending on the bandwidth and implementation of the filters in a converter, 44kHz can sound somewhat “smeared” compared to even 48kHz.

secretmusic · 2016-09-15T12:39:04.372Z

Hi ! You’re right, and this is what i meant. The volca is just as much an analog signal before it hits the OT, however, its frequency range is different, it lacks the massive present low end of the Voyager, and complex subharmonics. I’ve found that the OT will fare better with that kind of signal (almost bandpassed) than with full range, complex signals. Hope this makes it clearer

secretmusic · 2016-09-15T12:46:12.895Z

Hi Josker !
Yes you’re absolutely right. However, you’re forgetting one vital component in the A/B process, and this is why I always make a point in reminding people who think that this would settle anything : the OT has no way to ensure proper gain staging.
There are no meters, except from a LED that goes from green to red (!?)

So, there is no way to correctly ensure that we’re hitting the converters at the “proper” level (whatever that may be )
Also, there are a few more stages of gain on the playback chain, from sample level to track level to Master level. Which combination of those levels ensures limiting free playback of the sample ? We don’t know, and quite frankly, without Elektron’s insight (which they won’t give), there is no way to know.

Without clear and repeatable gain staging through metering, any A/B test is futile. It leaves too much to the ear, feelings, and user “error”.

Cheers !!

secretmusic · 2016-09-15T13:10:50.723Z

Hi ! Apologies again, i must admit that I didn’t check the date of the post I flagged !
Appreciate the help

secretmusic · 2016-09-15T13:13:18.654Z

Precisely ! Some instruments have a more intricate, delicate and wide ranging signal than others. Such signals benefit greatly from hi - end conversion, which the OT is not quite suited for, if only because of its lack of proper metering Cheers !

Stickhit · 2016-09-15T14:00:22.930Z

You are correct, human hearing does not just cut off at specific upper and lower frequencies and the cut off points and associated roll off slopes do indeed vary from person to person. However, this does not alter the fact that there are audio frequencies which you have never been able to hear and there are audio frequencies which you will no longer be able to hear as you get older.
The point I was trying to make in my initial post was that there are other things which I believe are more likely to affect your sound perception, on a day to day basis, than frequencies at the edge of your audible hearing range.

bolandross · 2016-09-15T14:42:28.266Z

I assert, that in a blind test, nobody would be able to distinguish a signal that went through the Octatrack from a signal that did not.

(using proper gain staging, since driving a converter too hot or digitally clipping a signal will -of course- be audible)

In other words: If you do it right, you won’t hear any “quality loss”.

By the way: A great song will still sound great, even after capturing it with a 8 bit sampler at 11khz … but that’s not what this discussion here is about.

Best regards,
bolandross

josker · 2016-09-15T14:47:47.520Z

Heh, well put.

I try to ignore things I can’t at all hear.

But yes, this is purely out of curiosity

Stickhit · 2016-09-15T15:10:16.975Z

A null test would be more accurate, takes the human being out of the equation