On Elektron’s policy on third party firmware [No Links/Promotion]

[agnetha]

So among other elektron boxes I got a Model cycles. So of course I ate from the forbidden fruit and modded it.
I’m shocked to learn what this until recently stagnant platform would have been capable of providing all along.
Am I a cynic for suspecting that this perhaps a reason to discontinue it. (:

[Zum]

the thought to have a model with more or even custom machines was so tempting to me since i got the cycles that i often got frustrated by the sound restrictions. i really love the format and feeling. i bought the samples to expand but i really didnt want to have to handle two of the same machine just to add samples and felt a bit cheated too. so i stop the making music with the models. of course quite irrational. there is lots to discover and make with the models as is

[Lizard-of-Oz]

@Fin25

they can flash a fucking RPG from the 80’s on to it.

I bought a FM-1 because I was looking for a cheap FM synth. Was just about to return it, because it’s a synth for ants.

However, I love RPGs from the 80s, so I looked for that firmware and found it.

If I install it, would that make your post an endorsement?

Now if I say I’ll test it and report back if it’s shite, and then I don’t report back, because it’s nice, is that post an endorsement (after a couple of days at least)?

A policy is instructions that people — at least those who intend to comply — interpret and then execute on. When I try that, these are the kinds of questions I end up with. Funny, innit?

[Sternenlicht]

There is now a tone 3000 guitar pedal out, which runs on a neural network open source plugin, which works with impulse responses.

The plugin is free, the HW host is about 500 -600 euros, and can host 4 ? effect chains.

It dosent need actual users - there will be a 1.000.000 startups bringing up their ideas - some will fail, some will be successfull. If you dont want to do it- many will try out their their development.

[Function1]

The models scenario is interesting - would sales have been better with just one box that did fm and samples had Elektron chose that route instead? I’m inclined to think that perhaps they may have sold more units of the models platform had it been one product, rather than 2 less featured products.

[Fin25]

@Lizard-of-Oz

If I install it, would that make your post an endorsement?

Obviously not. I genuinely can’t take this question seriously, you have to be taking the piss.

@Lizard-of-Oz

Now if I say I’ll test it and report back if it’s shite, and then I don’t report back, because it’s nice, is that post an endorsement (after a couple of days at least)?

There’s some mental gymnastics going on here that I just can’t begin to understand.

Either you’re being obtuse or there is no level of clarity that’s going to work for you.

[agnetha]

I think the existence of two seperate machines is an indicator that someone at accounting indeed did made this sort of calculation.

Elektron carefully timed their substantial updates to renew interest in and boost sales of existing hardware, which extends product lifetime from product runs to update cycles. Now the modders can frontrun their deliberate coreography and eat up the headroom for improvement left on their machines for all sorts of crazy experiments. They might make some extra sales from a few fence sitters excited about particular addons, but overall they have a massive strategy problem and I think the situation is to volatile to even come up with a coherent set of policies to navigate it yet.

[Buska]

@Hawk

That’s all good but I mean more like, if a cfw was loaded which contains a machine which is not included in the factory fw, projects are made which use that machine heavily, then you change to a fw without that machine, the projects will not sound correct on the new cfw.

For example, I use the Stretch machine on 2 or 3 tracks in every pattern, and if I loaded a cfw that was missing it (or if it was modified) my patterns would be messed up.

Bugs I would worry about to some degree for sure but more than that, I am relying on the machine working consistently each time I turn it on over the course of multiple years.

So I’m wondering if people are using these modified boxes to make music seriously

The cfw do not come as a firmware, you “build” the FW you want by selecting the various “modules”. If something new comes out you like, add it to your “build”. You can also save each cfw to a folder with a backup of the songs. If you want to revisit that FW, load it in and restore the project backup. It’s in your control how you do it, so if you just want QoL fixes then it’s pretty easy, or if you want custom machines and fx you could back up when you decide to change for another project.

Probably best method would be checking every 6 months and see what’s new and if you want to build another cfw

If the modding community stays strong there could be quite a lot of cool and crazy stuff on these boxes for a long time to come.

Wouldn’t be surprised if Elektron release some absolutely killer FW updates that encrypt the boot or something. Something tempting enough to update but locks you out of cfw moving forward, if that’s even possible

[stiwon]

@Function1

The models scenario is interesting - would sales have been better with just one box that did fm and samples had Elektron chose that route instead? I’m inclined to think that perhaps they may have sold more units of the models platform had it been one product, rather than 2 less featured products.

Its not necessarily about sales though. Two machines in one would have led to a more complex interface. My guess is that they were absolutely targetting the beginner market with these machines. Its justifiable, in that context, to work out how to simplify an interface as much as possible, without losing the essence of Elektron technology. From my perspective they did an outstanding job with these devices.

[Buska]

@schoolbabyboy

i think time has already told. people at large dont want to tinker, they dont have time for that unless its their hobby.

You ever browsed the reaktor user library? There’s some premium tinkering going on there…

If you want to explore weird synthesis and experimental fx the tinkering scene is fantastic. People make some super dope stuff that isn’t probably commercially viable but is really amazing.

[lerba]

I would also push back on the sentiment that Elektron and other producers left out functionality or timed fw updates tactically on purpose to drive up sales.
I think generally Elektron’s support has been outstanding and besides a few bad apples (Behringer, Polyend) I generally find the business practices agreeable and undestandable.
That being said it’s very tempting to try out custom firmware on and end-of-support device…

[dr_laemmerbein]

On a positive note: Elektron may analyze the firmwares floating around and curate good solutions into an official update.

[OT4eva]

I don’t think either the Cycles or Samples has seen a firmware update since maybe 2021. They gave up spending resources developing them, which is a shame.

Folks are reporting that they are hard to find for sale, so hopefully Elektron is benefiting from the aftermarket enthusiasm.

[Sternenlicht]

I think Elektron also did not have these tools available - and for a business its also questionable if you directly want to hand out your codebase to AI. Do you know if it just copies it to their libary ?

If i would run a business like Elektron - i would run local LLM to speed up my workflow - just not handout my engineering for free to a remote cloud system.

the question if it matters or not - if they anyway gets the decompiled feed from the internet.

And what is with the clean room implementation -if you dont copy the code - you just build something similar (which happend to the Adobe products.)

[GetsCold]

@Buska

Something tempting enough to update but locks you out of cfw moving forward, if that’s even possible

this is why this thread is interesting - the long term paradigm change these hacks perhaps will cause.

Ive yet to mod any of mine and would only consider the cycles at this stage. I’m also not too fussed about not being able to discuss the hacks - the legal sitch is what it is.

But there does seem to be a certain denial here that these modding possibilities mean anything significant at all, which I can’t agree with: you see relatively un-technical consumers online, agonizing about purchasing gear based on what can and can’t be done on them - does this machine have sample slice, is there a machine like that but with more polyphony and a master filter, etc etc. There are people who say can’t afford a DT2 who are motivated to push their model samples to the absolute limit to compensate. Yes these people probably don’t quite appreciate how well designed the “limited” workflows on elektron boxes are, but the demand is there all the same. I’d predict the “tinkering” necessary to install mods will be streamlined as time goes on too. I have to assume the availability of mods like this will have a big impact on the market.

[Buska]

@GetsCold

I’d predict the “tinkering” necessary to install mods will be streamlined as time goes on too. I have to assume the availability of mods like this will have a big impact on the market.

It already is. I would elaborate but it’s probably against the rules of this thread. But it’s entirely automated and web based already. You can build a cfw in 90sec.

[Starscream]

This is the house of Elektron. This is its house rule (whatever that may be), You don’t enter a person’s house and immediately start to review to amend that person’s house rule do you.

The position is clear or at least gaining clarity each time Elektron tries to respond to the incessant waves of rule breakings. Just take no for the answer, first time.

Why is this even up for discussion. The flip side of this position is a probable loss of traffic, member chatter and goodwill which was build up over time. We all like this community and is the go-to place for many and perhaps that’s why the topic lingers.

[ripsaw]

You are confusing Elektron the company with the way the forum mods are currently ruling…

@Starscream

The position is clear or at least gaining clarity each time Elektron tries to respond to the incessant waves of rule breakings. Just take no for the answer, first time.

It is not clear what the rule is even to the mods. That’s where the problem is. As stated from Elektron themselves:

@Elektron

General discussion around the topic is one thing, and not something we seek to inhibit, but we draw the line at distributing actionable material or actively encouraging people to install modifications that could damage their machines.

And what needs defining is what does “actively encouraging” mean and what does “General discussion” cover.

Some people on here think their interpretation is correct. Many people including the mods have been pointing out that there is a lack of clarity.

[chungapalm]

@Buska

Wouldn’t be surprised if Elektron release some absolutely killer FW updates that encrypt the boot or something. Something tempting enough to update but locks you out of cfw moving forward, if that’s even possible

Yeah didn’t this happen with the PSP and some other consoles? Newer hardware revisions have encryption or gates to prevent rollback as a response to the modding scene. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the route Elektron take - then watch the pre-2027 units shoot up in price on the used market.