On Elektron’s policy on third party firmware [No Links/Promotion]

[Lizard-of-Oz]

I think we are in the midst of hardware bubble. Not just with synths and groove boxes, also with mobile phones and other stuff.

Instead of figuring out how to stretch the limits of what existing hardware can do, numerous actors are pushing towards always newer hardware, because that is the simplest way to make money.

In my book that is not progress, it’s just change for the sake of selling new shiny things.

One aspect off the modded firmwares is that it brings new features to old hardware, and that works on three levels

• people can do more with what they have
• the desire for new things is satisfied without the waste that comes with building new things
• in some instances (the mod library for Elektron devices) they can even mix and match mods (the limit being things that do not work together, and general storage space)

I think adding value to existing hardware is a good thing.

People have been stretching the limits and fixing the shortcomings of synths and groove boxes for decades (Devilfish started out in 1993, aftermarket MIDI retrofits for various synths appeared around the same time, the first beta of JJOS was 2006, HAWK-800 was created 2005 I think, Circuitbenders (UK) has been selling mods and modded devices for at least that long).

AI only speeds up that process, as it speeds up software development everywhere. Developers who don’t use AI will go out of business rather sooner than later if their niche is not extremely small.

So businesses need to adapt to that reality, or go out of business. (The ethical implications of AI (which are many) need to be addressed through political action, we need laws and regulation for that. Whining about AI slop on social media is not going to do a damn thing.)

Apple makes good business with their App Store, google does the same. They also say these stores make apps more secure, and people seem to buy that.

That’s one way of responding to the existence of more and more modifications. There are many options how to make a profit from that.

With that comes the flexibility to set up modular firmwares. Want WAVEFINDER for your Digitakt, or Syntakt machines or Samples on your Model Cycles: you can have that for $20. Or $50.

@ivarin

there’s more to it. imagine that quite soon all the digi boxes may suddenly become obsolete if an “ultimate” tonverk fw gets out: with DN’s synths engines, DT’s chopping, ST’s sounds etc, all in one box

Tonverk is another platform than the Digis/ST/OT/Models. What we see now is the transfer of features within a platform (Sampling oder Syntakt machines to Model:Cycles).

Elektron is in a unique position of porting features between those platforms.

Lets look, at the positive way forward: You buy hardware with certain features (CPU, RAM, Controllers, Flash Storage), and an App Store where you can buy the functions you need. If you outgrow the hardware, or need different hardware features, just add a second box.

Here’s an example of extensible hardware: UDO DMNO ON, that lets you add more dedicated controllers. But if you combine that idea with software, and don’t just add controllers that can become a lot bigger. For example, why not transfer a track from one device to another, because you want more effects, or you need a single output, and have none left).

So from individual devices, Elektron could move towards a platform. With software development not longer being the limiting factor, that is a realistic option for a smaller player.

[Lizard-of-Oz]

Edit: post was flagged as off-topic, so removed a part I agree is debatable, and made more clear how the other part indeed does relate to the topic. Had to add context, because the post with the context was removed, too.

From the discussion on the lines forum about a possible new policy we can learn a few things about the topic of policies (even though the policy here, and the policy discussed there are not about the exact same thing):

One of those things is IMHO the acknowledgement of the mods that any policy can only ever be provisional, the environment keeps moving and we often only learn about the limits and usefulness of a policy through applying it.

[Oxenholme]

@Lizard-of-Oz

Lets look, at the positive way forward: You buy hardware with certain features (CPU, RAM, Controllers, Flash Storage), and an App Store where you can buy the functions you need. If you outgrow the hardware, or need different hardware features, just add a second box.

I mean, I get your point.

But also at the same time I’m like: Why? I buy hardware to get a curated experience, where I can feel the opinion of the designer(s) in how it’s laid out, the tactile experience, the integration of hard & software etc. And yes, also for its limitations. If you just buy a shell and then add whatever software to it… What’s the point?

I’d just get a laptop, get a decent mid controller and call it a day really if I just want to do everything.

[Lizard-of-Oz]

I get your point, but I can still see a few advantages

• it’s still a more curated experience
• it is a more integrated experience
• it does not let you waste time on social media

But my whole point is exactly this: with AI, these devices essentially become computers that can run any software.

[Fin25]

@Lizard-of-Oz

with AI, these devices essentially become computers that can run any software

So like a computer then?

So we’re still in the “refuse to use a DAW but won’t stop until all hardware is basically the same as a DAW” phase?

[Kegeratorz]

@LCVL

alternative forums where we can discuss these topics

Oh man, that would be great if this and all the other threads migrated elsewhere and we could get back to a civil, non hostile community! Fingers crossed!

[ripsaw]

@Kegeratorz

this and all the other threads

This is the only thread I see on this topic here. What other threads are you talking about?

[Lizard-of-Oz]

@Fin25

So we’re still in the “refuse to use a DAW but won’t stop until all hardware is basically the same as a DAW” phase?

That’s one way to frame this, and one way to project what might happen.

I’m more looking at how we got here, and what has changed, and I can see another way.

PCs and Laptops have evolved for some common use cases and these came with a specific kind of interface. An interface that is not particularly suited for a variety of other use cases. Like making music. You don’t need an alphanumeric keyboard for that, or a mouse, or even a large screen. You do benefit from faders and knobs, and a piano keyboard, where you can develop a muscle memory related to the experience of making music.

But why should that need to come with a forever-fixed variety of effects that you can use?

That used to be the choice of the manufacturer. So these boxes were not computers in the sense that you could decide what software to run on them.

That is different now.

[szzdz]

@Oxenholme

I buy hardware to get a curated experience, where I can feel the opinion of the designer(s) in how it’s laid out, the tactile experience, the integration of hard & software etc.

this is already the experience you’re choosing by not installing any mods. and the people who think a machinedrum master compressor or slide trigs on their box might be interesting can do that too.

i don’t think many people are looking to add a bunch of nonsense to their elektron machines, but now the choice is with the user

[Fin25]

@ripsaw

A DAW is not that, attempting to get a midi controller to work that way with a DAW is an exercise in frustration. For the same level of integration you need a full scripting engine and two way communication to the control surface. You will inevitably be using a mouse at some point. 3rd party firmware can use the existing interaction paradigm and utilize it when adding more functionality

It’s an absolute piece of piss to get most controllers to work with DAWs these days, or you can use Max or Max for live to build your own system without too much mucking about, totally bespoke systems with minimal outlay and effort. You can even go fully down the rabbit hole with OSC controllers and stuff like that, super detailed control of all sorts of stuff, endless iterations of whatever you can imagine.

Anyway, my point is that all this “modding and hacking” is probably going to end up with a load of devices that are stuffed full of features, bloated and all the other things people complain that a DAW is.

All this energy, carbon and water being spent on people being able to do stuff they could have been doing with a computer for decades.

It seems a bit silly to me, that’s all.

[3headedmonkey]

@Lizard-of-Oz

That is IMHO inconsistent: if modded firmware for any vendor cant be endorsed because it can damage devices, that same argument applies to hardware modifications of any manufacturer.

I think there is a qualitative difference there: With hardware modifications, it is safe to assume that any reasonable person would understand that it leads to voiding the warranty and that no support from the OEM can be expected. With third-party firmwares, the barrier is much lower and this might — as others have argued in this thread before — lead to support requests or warranty claims that clearly woud be outside of the OEM’s responsibility.

[GurtTractor]

@Fin25

could have been doing with a computer

And a lot of people were, it’s just that now more people can do it even faster. And it doesn’t have to be a general purpose machine (Arduino, RPi etc), it can be an augmentation to something that you already happen to own that has a nice hardware interface.

[ripsaw]

I still fail to see how this is on topic of Elektron’s policy on third party firmware.

@Fin25

All this energy, carbon and water being spent on people being able to do stuff they could have been doing with a computer for decades.

It seems a bit silly to me, that’s all.

Is that not a direct refutation of any sort of bespoke hardware when the user could have just gotten a computer/laptop?