Octatrack swing vs. MPC swing and others

license · 2014-12-10T14:22:03.000Z

Yeah t and secretmusic had some great points about timing that make perfect sense, both from a “math and science” and “use your ears” perspective. Thanks for the insight and inspiration. Most of the rest of you might want to re-examine their posts - you might learn a thing or two.

Let’s not make this about how device A is so much “better” than device B (as an excuse to go shopping for new toys) but about how we can put these ideas to use with what’s available to each of us.

Prints · 2014-12-10T14:55:31.000Z

""clunky"":

Prints:

[quote=“t”]Another thing to keep in mind is that there can be a distinct difference between triggering drum sounds on an (analogue) drum machine versus triggering samples of those same drum sounds.

On most drum machines, multiple triggers of the same sound aren’t going to sound exactly identical, especially not if the next trigger for the same sound is played before the previous one has gone silent.

The 808 BD is a famous example of this. Even though the 808 has a simple sequencer with a tight and straight timing, the variation in sound when you put multiple triggers close together with a medium or long decay, results in a pretty organic groove.

Now do the same on a sampler using the same pattern (without any swing of velocity variation), and you’ll get that “machine gun” effect.

I think this is what people refer to when they talk about the “groove” of a 606 or 808; even though the sequencers in these machines are entirely straight without a swing option, the way the analog circuity is triggered still introduces a distinct variation in sound that’s related to where triggers are placed in the sequence.

What the hell are you talking about?

t said "I think this is what people refer to when they talk about the “groove” of a 606 or 808; even though the sequencers in these machines are entirely straight without a swing option, the way the analog circuity is triggered still introduces a distinct variation in sound that’s related to where triggers are placed in the sequence."

I disagree with this. I think it’s false to assume the analog circuitry introduces the “distinct variation in sound that’s related to where triggers are placed in the sequence.” Case in point, the analog RYTM, the very drum machine that prompted me to reply to this thread. And now you’re going to tell me I never owned an 808?? Lol okay dude[/quote]

im not going to school you, just look it up dude your making yourself look like a complete n00b

You’re not going to school me?? Thank you for showing such restraint lol. What point are you trying to make? If the analog circuitry of the drum-synthesis portion of the TR808 is the reason for it’s “un-machine-gun-like” sound, why doesn’t the analog synthesis of the RYTM do the same for it? Why does the Acidlab MIAMI not have the 808 groove although it’s analog circuitry is based upon the TR808?
Please school me. So far you haven’t added anything of value to this discussion.

Prints · 2014-12-10T14:58:31.000Z

I also think people are talking about two different things here; the “swing” function that offsets certain steps of the pattern, and the inherent looseness of the feel of the sequencer with no swing applied. I’m talking about the latter, and I agree with the OP because I’ve noticed it. I’m just comparing drum machines I’ve owned over the course of the last 15 years. I’m inclined to believe it has something to do with the CPU as an earlier poster stated. All the older drum machines have this less tight timing that is perceived as more “groovy” by some, even the sample based ones (LinnDrum, Drumtraks, Oberheim DX, etc). But yeah, that’s where I start speculating because I don’t know enough. Maybe MFB uses a similar CPU for their drum machines?

KOTARE · 2014-12-11T00:49:36.000Z

Lol grown men getting all heated up over a drum machine.

What a flamers paradise this place has become.

I once was producing a collaborative techno track with a friend and he was totally anal about getting the kick to hit at -6db on the master track, to the point where he wasn’t actually using his ears anymore - it was a math equation. Here’s where science in isolation loses logic - just because a kick at -6db sounds good some of the time, or just because it always works for producer X and Y, doesn’t mean that it will work all of time, or for producer Z.

You have to trust your ears, your gut, because these are parts of your biology and as music is a sensorial language your senses, wonderfully flawed in the same way that a UA1176 is flawed, are the true measure of what is what.

When people think of swing from old MPCs though they primarily think of drums, and I am adamant that the gain staging, AD/DA and envelopes of these instruments, combined with the swing algorithm, are what we refer to when we say old MPC swing.

My $0.02

Orwell · 2014-12-14T02:04:32.000Z

micro timing, vol/start/delay plocking will give some swing to a pattern, will it not?
layering as suggested will Change the groove
would ot vinyl sampling with analog hits create a subtle groove

not sure what the issue is with elektron swing

couldn’t one not use an sp1200, mpc3000 groove template and apply vintage swing from abelton into an elektron box

Housecliche · 2014-12-14T04:19:10.000Z

""Baddcr"":

Very interesting…

I don’t know much about this, but maybe someone can explain to me why I have a wide selection of groove templates in Ableton including:

MPC
SP1200
Swing
Notator
Logic etc…

Many of which seem to e the ‘same’ swing setting

If they are all the same algorithm, why bother putting them all in??

Or to put it another way, what is it about the different swing models that warrants this wide selection and not just a general 16-65 swing setting?

^^ this nails it for me love to hear someone ‘scientifically’ answer…

Prints · 2014-12-14T04:29:38.000Z

I can’t wait for someone who’s never tried any of these drum machines to chime in and tell me it’s all in my head. I’m not even going to bother to respond.

t · 2014-12-14T06:41:42.000Z

[quote=“” Baddcr""]
Very interesting…

I don’t know much about this, but maybe someone can explain to me why I have a wide selection of groove templates in Ableton including:

MPC
SP1200
Swing
Notator
Logic etc…

Many of which seem to e the ‘same’ swing setting

If they are all the same algorithm, why bother putting them all in??

Or to put it another way, what is it about the different swing models that warrants this wide selection and not just a general 16-65 swing setting?
[/quote]

Marketing? This thread makes it more than clear that people believe in the magical swing fairy, so it makes sense to offer a lot of options even though they’re not inherently different.

t · 2014-12-14T06:44:31.000Z

This is actually one of my primary complaints about most software these days; it’s so easy to add an almost unlimited number of presets that developers end up putting a huge number of identical presets in without wondering if that’s even musically useful at all.

KOTARE · 2014-12-14T07:13:14.000Z

""Prints"":

I can’t wait for someone who’s never tried any of these drum machines to chime in and tell me it’s all in my head. I’m not even going to bother to respond.

Bingo.

h4ndcrafted · 2014-12-14T08:29:12.000Z

I was concerned about the RYTM swing, thing is, with micro timing it has made swing largely redundant to me. I used to consider swing really important on a drum machine, micro timing is much better way of getting a nice groove.

andreasroman · 2014-12-14T08:43:42.000Z

I’ve spent the better part of the weekend now building tracks in Tempest, Octatrack and Tanzbar, using drum samples from the Tanzbar in the Octa (as well as some from Vermona DRM). I’ve played some with the Volca Beats as well. All instruments perform very well. But they all have a different groove.

Bottom line - swing is a feature. That feature is part of an instrument’s groove, which consists of much more than just the swing feature.

Perhaps the swing feature as described by Linn, is an algorithm that doesn’t really make much difference from developer to developer (though I doubt it - unless they copy paste each other’s code, micro optimisation for example should make a difference). Even so, he’s just laying out the idea behind it, not the actual architecture or implementation. That would likely take hours to explain. So there has to be differences in implementation on this swing feature alone, that makes some kind of impact, detectable or not by measuring instruments but certainly by ear.

Disregarding this, for the sake of argument that maybe swing as a feature is identical on all machines, the groove on them are different. Ears and gut beat measurements by calibration, and swing is part of what makes a machine groove, but swing is not the only thing.

Velocity, timing, sample trimming, and swing of course, the musician’s own finger drumming skills, details in quantisation, the converters, just add to the list.

The point of this thread was to establish, is there a difference in the groove of different instruments? The swing feature is part of that but not the only part, and certainly not the question to answer.

So my bad for using that word, but let’s focus on the main question:

Is there a difference between how these instruments groove?

bolandross · 2014-12-14T09:06:37.000Z

This might be interesting for some of you:

[http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20ICS%20Litmus.html](http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New ICS Litmus.html)

XanaX · 2014-12-14T10:11:44.000Z

Hey guys, being a drum machine fanatic and owning quite a few of the classic drum machines (606/707/808/909, SP1200, MPC60, MPC3000, MPC2000, OT, Tempest, TR-8…) I’m pretty familiar with this topic so here is my input. There is definitely a unique swing feel on most drum machines. I am disregarding things such as velocity, sample truncating, analog circuitry etc… which indeed can influence the groove. But focusing purely on the swing function, there are 3 main factors that give it a specific feel:

PPQ resolution. it’s mathematical, the lower the PPQ, the more coarse the swing. the higher the PPQ, the more subtle it gets. This is why the SP-1200 (24PPQ), TR-909 (24PPQ), Linndrum (48PPQ) have this very jumpy prominent swing (which i personally love). On the other en of the spectrum, you’re DAW with it’s super high 960 PPQ will be a lot more tame when applying swing.
Jitter. as the innerclock litmus test reveals, every drum machine (or sequencer really) emits a varied amount of jitter. jitter can make or break a midi clock’s timing. You want as little as possible. This is why the early MPC’s feel tighter & groovier then the later Numark series because the jitter is very low.
Swing algo. Not every box swings the same notes, Roger Linn breaks down his algo in the attack mag interview. Generally speaking though most boxes use the same. TR-8 has a really cool feature where you can go into negative swing for a radically different swing algo…

And There you have it, that’s about it! by the way, what I would like to see on modern units (such as elektrons) is the ability to lower the PPQ to give a coarser swing… The groove templates in Ableton sort of emulate that…

clunky · 2014-12-14T12:53:50.000Z

""KOTARE"":

[quote=“Prints”]I can’t wait for someone who’s never tried any of these drum machines to chime in and tell me it’s all in my head. I’m not even going to bother to respond.

Bingo.[/quote]
there’s a drum machine named “Bingo” and i just thought it was a bears name!

got any demos?

surely prints has had one, after all 15 yrs an all, better party like its 1999…

Orwell · 2014-12-15T04:22:02.000Z

so anyone have the microtiming adjustments specs- micro timing adjustments to emulate it - to emulate a 909/808/sp1200 groove/swing on an A4 or AR

or shall we just go by ear and get a groove going?

poonti · 2014-12-15T04:38:20.000Z

""Orwell"":

so anyone have the microtiming adjustments specs- micro timing adjustments to emulate it - to emulate a 909/808/sp1200 groove/swing on an A4 or AR

or shall we just go by ear and get a groove going?

I think you;ll find option 2 much more gratifying!

t · 2014-12-15T08:20:18.000Z

""XanaX"":

PPQ resolution. it’s mathematical, the lower the PPQ, the more coarse the swing. the higher the PPQ, the more subtle it gets. This is why the SP-1200 (24PPQ), TR-909 (24PPQ), Linndrum (48PPQ) have this very jumpy prominent swing (which i personally love). On the other en of the spectrum, you’re DAW with it’s super high 960 PPQ will be a lot more tame when applying swing.

A higher resolution doesn’t make the swing itself more “tame”; you can shift those even-numbered steps just as far out with a high PPQ as you can with a low PPQ.

It is true that your control over the amount of swing applied gets coarser the lower the resolution of the sequencer which is related to the point I made earlier in this thread:

some machines will for example have a parameter response that make it much easier, or shall we say more intuitive, to dial in just the right amount of swing.

Something else to note is that most older drum machines, including the MPC apply swing as part of the quantization process which means that you can’t grab the “swing amount” knob, turn it, and hear the result of your adjustments like you can in a DAW or on any of the Elektron boxes.

andreasroman · 2014-12-15T09:29:44.000Z

So I guess it would be possible to create groove templates in the Octatrack then, with example samples included together with adjusted timing and swing amount, to get a certain feel. Most sample packs you buy for the Octa has something going there, but it would be interesting to have a batch that does just that and only that.

Then, you’ll just replace whatever sound you prefer with that swing, and start tweaking. Especially for beginners in this area, it would help to have templates for certain grooves if they just want to get a good beat going and not bother about the mechanics behind it.

This is one of the things I like about the Tanzbar. It doesn’t only just crank up the amount of swing when you select between its different shuffle options. It does micro timing adjustments as well, so you can get a different feel from different templates, depending on what you want. But you can’t tweak it, you get what you ask for, but usually that’s enough. That guy has been making drum machines for 30 years. I’m sure he’s better at implementing the technicalities behind a groove than I am, as long as I know what I want to use it for.

XanaX · 2014-12-15T13:38:23.000Z

""t"":

[quote=" XanaX"]1. PPQ resolution. it’s mathematical, the lower the PPQ, the more coarse the swing. the higher the PPQ, the more subtle it gets. This is why the SP-1200 (24PPQ), TR-909 (24PPQ), Linndrum (48PPQ) have this very jumpy prominent swing (which i personally love). On the other en of the spectrum, you’re DAW with it’s super high 960 PPQ will be a lot more tame when applying swing.

A higher resolution doesn’t make the swing itself more “tame”; you can shift those even-numbered steps just as far out with a high PPQ as you can with a low PPQ.

It is true that your control over the amount of swing applied gets coarser the lower the resolution of the sequencer which is related to the point I made earlier in this thread:
Something else to note is that most older drum machines, including the MPC apply swing as part of the quantization process which means that you can’t grab the “swing amount” knob, turn it, and hear the result of your adjustments like you can in a DAW or on any of the Elektron boxes.

[/quote]
Right I see what you mean but the point is just low PPQ machines have a coarse swing, high PPQ machines don’t by default (but of course they are technically capable of, hence groove templates).

As for MPCs… there is indeed no real-time swing knob, it’s an option inside the quantize settings. but that doesn’t really change anything as far swing results. it is to note that on Tempest the swing amount is fixed to point decimal values Roger Linn found the grooviest such as 56.3% or 62.5% within a 50 to 75% range (like on MPCs).