Octatrack / Rytm Comparison

enryo · 2015-02-14T13:52:30.000Z

Hi, wasn’t sure if this should go in Octatrack or Rytm sections…

For anyone that has used both machines, how do the Octatrack and Rytm machines compare in:

Overall sound
Sample management
FX quality
Filters quality/sound
Work-flow when working mainly with samples

They both fit the bill for me. I prefer working with samples, but am not adverse to those deep analog drums of the Rytm.

Pros and cons for me:

Octatrack: Pros - sampling & resampling with no computer, stereo samples, more FX options, OktaKontrol. Cons - complicated workflow to track-out - no Overbridge, no Strom.

Rytm: Pros - possibly better filters/FX (???) if fewer of them, Overbridge, Strom, OktaKontrol. Cons - no global sample storage, no sampling, no resampling, mono samples only, fewer FX options.

I’m sure there are plenty more pros and cons for each, but without having access to either I don’t know about them? There are videos around with very cool creative stuff done with both… I’m sure I’d be happy with either.

Over to you…

avantronica · 2015-02-14T14:54:15.000Z

Obviously better filters on the AR, to my ears too.
Better workflow for sample management/mangling on OT by far
AR is focussed at percussives but can be textural and less obv Drum m/c
OT is massively flexible, massively flexible, for all its foibles it is far more alluring as a general studio wizard, but it takes time, AR took a week to get, a year later i’m still loving what i can learn to do with OT
AR is pure/focussed OT is dark/broad and a powerhouse
If i ever master OT i’m in no doubt about what my favourite would be, but I love the AR immediacy and focus, it sounds next level
Two different things

kuroichi · 2015-02-14T15:01:14.000Z

Octatrack sound is generally cleaner overall, much more consistent in regards to sound edits, envelopes etc, although that is somewhat expected due to it being a sampler, digital, and due to the age difference.

The Rytm is always leaning towards a distorted sound, and when it comes to samples that can be a problem, as it might not be what you want. A clean crisp sound from the Rytm is possible, but doesn’t seem to be the design focus.

As far as samples are concerned, the Octatrack far outstrips the Rytm in capabilities. However, the simpler options on the Rytm mean the Rytm is easier to work with from a starters point of view. If you are really interested in extensive sample editing and manipulation, I would argue the OT is one of the best samplers available.

Sample handling on the Rytm seems pointlessly hindered at times. I think the ability to manage the +Drive as an external drive on PC/Mac would be far better.

The effects on both are fine, I wouldn’t say the FX on the Rytm were better or vice versa. They are different though, and the Rytm seems specifically aimed to work with percussive samples. The OT’s bit reduction, is better though imo, and the new Rytm style BR isn’t that versatile.
The filters on the Octatrack are a lot better than what I remember on the MD and the MnM, and although they aren’t analog, they do sound good. I’ve always felt the general sound of the OT was great.

With the Rytm, I don’t think samples sound as ‘crisp’ as they do on the OT. Thats highly debatable though, and isn’t a bad point by any means. The filters are great and work well shaping samples.

Both machines have a solid sound, they differ but aren’t better or worse in general than the other.

The key to the OT is reading the manual, and learning the architecture and sound flow. Once you understand how sound is stored and produced by the machine, and in what order, things get quite easy. After that you have to approach it knowing what you want it to do, ie. an 8 voice drum machine, a DJ style mixer/music player, A synth etc. It can take a lot of forms, and if you don’t pick one, its easy to get lost wondering what its purpose should be.

The Rytm, while using samples, is a very straight forward machine, the only issue with work flow is saving sounds that use samples and then jumping into different projects. Either way on both machines, an organised sound pool is the key, rather than working from your +drive storage. Rytm can accept long samples, but considering the lack of sample capabilities, there isn’t much point in trying to use the machine solely for its sample features.

As samplers, the machine don’t compare. The OT is one of the finest hardware samplers made. The Rytm isn’t up to par in that respect. It is a great drum machine, but is limited once you move outside that scope. With the Rytm you are essentially manipulating predefined sounds. But some of them aren’t that great, although that could change completely with an update/new machines. The Bass Tom, is pretty much useless at the moment, and would work better as a simple bass synth (edit: meant bass drum) imo.

If possible I would just have both, but as far as features go, I could use the OT for drum machine duties. I couldn’t use the Rytm to do whatever the OT does. Its just not possible.

Shoki · 2015-02-14T15:01:59.000Z

I think the filter on the OT has its character, i find it nice sounding and very flexible. It sounds GOOD !!!

This is just a preference really

Madchiller · 2015-02-14T16:03:24.000Z

This is all extremely subjective. Its kinda apple to oranges.

The Rytm is not a sampler in the traditional sense. I find the sound from the RYTM to be much fuller and smoother in general. The analog engines provide a warmth the octatrack can not provide. I wish the OT had the RYTMs filters. I find the OT filters to sound thin and digital by comparison.

The RYTM’s Bass Tom is far from useless. Many people are using it for 808 style kicks as the primary kick engine doesn’t seem to hit that mark.

The OT is by far the most amazing sampler I have ever owned, but I would not go to it for certain drum sounds. I use it to cut up break samples, but I use the RYTM for everything else drum wise.

The RYTM’s sample engine can be used creatively to get some really nice results but that is not the machines forte. If you don’t want dirty samples then don’t use the Overdrive or distortion. Simple.

The two machines compliment each other extremely well. Glad I own both.

enryo · 2015-02-14T16:45:36.000Z

Thanks everyone, this is all really interesting and useful.

A couple of things I’m not sure about which you may be able to help with:

Sample Management:

With both machines, how does sample management work? For example, the CF card for the Octa and +Drive for the Rytm can hold plenty of samples for me. How are these accessed during real-world track building use? Once you’re in a a project, with it’s 128 kits, can you still access and load in other samples from the main drive? Or are you limited to what you’ve already pre-loaded?

I’ve seen some info on Strom which looks like you can just load samples in and out of the Rytm on the fly, does anyone have any experience working like this? I don’t have an iPad, but I may have down the line.

Really, access to all my samples is important, because when I start building a track I never know where it’s going to go, or what I’m going to need.

FX:

For both machines: Are the master send FX and track FX different? And can you EQ either of the FX?

How do the reverbs compare?

I’ll probably never use more than reverb, chorus and delay anyway. I’m not into bit crushing or anything like that. Plus I can get a pedal when I need to.

Tracks:

On the Octa, there are 8 stereo tracks. Straightforward. But the Rytm has 8 voices, but 12 drum tracks - how does this work? Are there 12 tracks sequencing for those 8 voices? Or is this 8 internal tracks and 4 for external gear?

Output/Input:

Both machines: If I use an output to go to an FX unit and bring it back in, does this use up one of the tracks, or is this an extra monitoring route?

Sample Playback:

Apart from the mono/stereo thing, how do the engines differ for sample playback with maybe some filter and FX work etc. Are the basic sequencing engines the same. In what way does the Octa outstrip the Rytm for samples? Sampling inbox and resampling aside, can you give me some examples of sample based stuff that you can do on the Octa that isn’t possible on the Rytm? I don’t work with loops or need tempo matching/time stretching/chopping etc… more one-shot stuff, but I’d still like to be able to arrange musically, so for example to program in a bass sequence or whatever.

Really, the Rytm’s analog drums are an extra for me, I probably won’t use them much, except maybe the kick sometimes to beef things up. I have good drum samples that I’m happy with. My main focus is working with samples of all types, percussion, synths, atmospheres, found sound, pianos, voices, etc. even if I have to import them from somewhere else rather than actually sampling them on the machine.

As long as I can have easy access to my samples when I need them and have the ability to mould them and process them in a subtle but creative way and then sequence them as you would on an Octatrack, I’ll be happy… although stereo would ace, as would be the ability to actually sample in the box.

Honestly I could happily make music with a Korg Volca Sample if it had longer pattern lengths, easy sample management and an easy way to track-out… but that’s why I’m looking at Elektrons

So If I can do that that on the Rytm, I think it would be a better option as you also get nice analogue filters and Overbridge - which could prove invaluable in tracking out.

Noisebuddy · 2015-02-14T17:03:32.000Z

Thats a extrem good question… thank you … i have the a4 and the ot
both serve me well … i’m also took a close look on the ar … but for reasons i cannot exactly explane i hasitate to grab one … i do my drums in the ot which is a bit tricky sometimes (BD vs. SNARE)… and i would prefere individual outs … an option the ar has
i also got the feeling that the ar is an unfinished product… but soundwise great from what i’ve heard

a dedicated drummachine would be nice … so the ot could act as a fx-machine for my modular

would be interesting to know how acoustic-drumsamples are sounding in the ar
i also would like to know if there are plans from elektron to implement different time signatures per track like on the ot

avantronica · 2015-02-14T17:58:16.000Z

Blimey, i can’t read let alone respond to all of that, but as for the first point
The RYTM references sample numbers in the pool
there’s one ‘pool’ of 127 samples per project
that could be 128 patterns
which could use 128 kits
each step could drink to one of those pool samples

but if you change them or move them or need more you’re getting into issues

the OT also can work like a pool, but you can pull the samples into that project if you like - so ‘links’ won’t be broken

it’s all about management, this applies to all elektron units, esp re kits and such

there’s also a drive full of sounds to use, but again, if you sound lock a sound on any trig, it will be referencing a 7bit midi number, NOT a name or a link to a file if it gets overwritten or moved

use projects to mess with your pool layouts so that each one can remain mostly frozen for compatibility sake !

it’s a limitation, but it’s not really either, a modular synth has no presets, it’s not limited

Random_Dude · 2015-02-16T19:41:38.000Z

""henryoakley"":

Thanks everyone, this is all really interesting and useful.

A couple of things I’m not sure about which you may be able to help with:

…

i’m no expert with both machines, so i hope others will correct me if i say anything wrong, but i’ll try to outline some points which might be important for you:

1. effects and routing:

AR has only the filter and bit reduction (only for sample component, not the synth part) as a true per track effects. while there is overdrive, delay and reverb, you can only set the feed/depth amount on each track, but the effect settings themselves (delay time, reverb size, etc) are global for the whole machine. there is also no EQ, which i think you asked about. there is a pretty good sounding compressor at the very exit which melts all tracks with whatever comes from audio in
OT has a whole bunch of different effects, including 2 different filters, 2 EQs, bit reduction, chorus, flanger and then some. you can only choose 2 of these per track, but with neighbor machines you can stack up even more. all these affects are configured per track and can have totally different settings. you can set track 8 as master track and have 2 more effects act on the whole mix

2. filters:

ARs filters do sound better to my ears. every track on AR always has its own filter. you can switch between the type of filter (HP/LP/BP)
OTs first filter type is actually a combo of LP and HP (which of course can give you a BP in the end), which is somewhat more tweakable. the second filter type is a comb filter.

3. project sample management:

AR has a pool of 128 sample slots, which can be used in any of the 12 tracks. you can of course have all 12 tracks play the same sample with totally different settings
OT has 128 slots for flex machines + 128 slots for static machines + (if i’m not mistaken) the 8 track recorders, which hold whatever they have recorded during the session (which will be lost unless you save it before powering off)

4. sample editing:

AR has none. you can define the start and endpoint of playback, however only in the range of 0 to 120. this means that you basically have 120 “slices” in your sample where you can start from / end at. this might mean trouble if you are trying to find a zero crossing. and while it is possible to use sample chains in AR the same way people have been using them in OT, they would have to be assembled with that 120 in mind (64/32/16er sample chains wont work in AR, but for example a chain of 12 samples would)
OT has a full blown sample editor. you can zoom in into the waveform, tweak your start / end / loop points in milliseconds, snap to zero crossings, slice the sample as you need, and save it with all these settings back to your library

5. sample uploading and library management:

with AR you have to use the C6 software right now, which is somewhat a pain. you can not upload whole folder structures. you need to create a folder on AR first, then set it as upload folder, then push the sample over from your PC. you can of course just upload the whole bunch first (but C6 tends to fail if you try to upload too many at the same time) and sort it on AR later, but you have to do it manually. yes, there is STROM, but my guess is that it uses SYSEX to communicate with AR, which enables it to do the wicked things it does. however, i expect that this will get much better once Overbridge is released. i sincerely think that it will also do wonders for AR in terms of sample upload and management and will allow similar workflows as STROM does.
pushing samples to OT is as easy as pushing them on any external drive: plug in USB (or put in the flash card in a reader) and copy over the whole folder structure that you have collected (respecting OTs supported formats of course)

6. performance (as in playing / jamming live):

the perfomance mode on AR are OTs scenes on steroids. its basically like having 12 (!) of OTs scene faders at your disposal. and then you still the AR scene mode for another 12 (not fadeable but totally different) settings. the cromatic mode is fun to play too, since the pads are velocity sensitive and allow for very dynamic performance. the pads are very fun to play in general. i suck at playing / finger-drumming, but they work really well for me
in comparison with AR, OTs fader between 2 scenes might seem weak, but you can have 16 scenes saved and switch between them on the fly, which is the next level of amazing. and OT is actually not just a sampler. its an 8 track MIDI sequencer too, with wicked programmable arps, MIDI-learn-enabled CC parameters (which you can of course parameter lock as you go). other than that, OT has also 2 stereo inputs, which makes it even more suited as all the mixer you need (if thats all you need)

7. what do YOU want it for? (a.k.a. “invest in future” and “don’t pay for something you don’t need”):

AR is a hybrid drum synthesizer. yes, it can play samples, but i’m sure this will always be its part-time job. i expect to see more synth machines / engines coming to it in later updates. with time, it will be closer to MD UW than to OT. if you don’t need the drum synth component, it would be stupid to pay for it
OT is a sampler / mixer / MIDI sequencer / wicked effect overlord, which can take anything you send to its audio-in and spit out magic in your face. and i expect it to get more affects in the future. and it’s cheaper than AR right now

TL;DR:
choose as you feel is right, but i believe that OT suits you use case better (at least as far as i understood it)

regarding your other questions:
yes, AR has 12 tracks, but only 8 voices. if you look closer at the front panel ( Analog Rytm MKI | Elektron ), you will see the dotted lines between some of the pads (CH/OH, MT/HT, etc). these tracks share a voice, meaning only one of them can play at the same time. if one is playing and the other one starts, it will basically stop the playback on the first one. think of it as mute groups more or less.

and even if i write for another 2 hours, i will never be able to give you as much info on AR as Cuckoo did in his video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8q3Iv4uEDs

and for OTs scenes and how to use them godly, i’d suggest watching MrDataline do it right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_1JLni-5Lw

enjoy! ;]

secretmusic · 2015-02-16T20:16:20.000Z

[quote=““Random Dude””]

in comparison with AR, OTs fader between 2 scenes might seem weak,
[/quote]

Don’t forget a vital piece of information when talking about performances on the AR vs scenes on the OT :
you can lock an infinite number of parameters to scenes on the OT, but definitely not so on the AR. I run out of p-locks after setting up 2 or 3 performances max. So, while it may seem like having 12 performance pads is a luxury, each of those performances can only lock one or 2 parameters. This, at least for me, completely changes the workflow. When setting up performances on the AR, i’m always being really conservative, as I know I’ll hit the p-lock limit soon.
Also, and this is another major point, the crossfader in the OT is very easy to control, as opposed to pad pressure on the AR. I can visually tell where I am on the OT. Also, while you can “freeze” a performance in the AR by changing to a different pad mode, it’s not as convenient or fun as loading 2 scenes on the OT’s fader and finding that perfect and unexpected sweetspot in between the 2 scenes.
Ultimately, it sounds like the OT would be much better suited for you if you’re looking for a sampler.
Cheers !

Random_Dude · 2015-02-16T21:21:16.000Z

""secretmusic"":

you can lock an infinite number of parameters to scenes on the OT

now that is something i didn’t know, thanks, mate! :]
since AR was my first Elektron, i quietly assumed than OT would have a similar kind of limit.

and yes, there is a metric ton of stuff i forgot to mention in my blurp. both machines have way too many features to list and compare them. and both have quite a few limits, but so far in my experience all these limits actually… feel right. they tend to inspire you to try to work around them, do things differently and get some unexpected but great results.

but running out of p-locks?.. you must be doing something totally awesome ;] i don’t remember if the 48 p-locks limit is shared between performance and scene modes on AR, or if it’s 48 each, but so far i never ran out of them. i, too, try to be conservative with them. and i also switch patterns frequently. and since the scenes / performances are bound to kits, and patterns can use different kits, it wasn’t a problem so far. it wasn’t even a conscious workaround, just a matter of my approach to performing. i just wanted the same pad to affect the sound differently as i go further.

that’s at least my approach

secretmusic · 2015-02-17T12:44:00.000Z

[quote=““Random Dude””]

secretmusic:

you can lock an infinite number of parameters to scenes on the OT

now that is something i didn’t know, thanks, mate! :]
since AR was my first Elektron, i quietly assumed than OT would have a similar kind of limit.

and yes, there is a metric ton of stuff i forgot to mention in my blurp. both machines have way too many features to list and compare them. and both have quite a few limits, but so far in my experience all these limits actually… feel right. they tend to inspire you to try to work around them, do things differently and get some unexpected but great results.

but running out of p-locks?.. you must be doing something totally awesome ;] i don’t remember if the 48 p-locks limit is shared between performance and scene modes on AR, or if it’s 48 each, but so far i never ran out of them. i, too, try to be conservative with them. and i also switch patterns frequently. and since the scenes / performances are bound to kits, and patterns can use different kits, it wasn’t a problem so far. it wasn’t even a conscious workaround, just a matter of my approach to performing. i just wanted the same pad to affect the sound differently as i go further.

that’s at least my approach
[/quote]
good point, I probably do go overboard on p-locks, but hey, that’s what they’re for
to be fair, i’ve had the OT for so long that it is natural to me to abuse the scene p-locks as they are, indeed, limitless. So I’m used to just going from page to page and locking everything that makes sense. Then the sweeping commences
so what i’m trying to say is that you don’t feel that limitation because you know it’s there, and you work accordingly. If you were used to a workflow without that limitation, I think you’d feel it, too, if you were then “reduced” to 48 p-locks. Don’t get me wrong, I personally don’t think it’s too small a number, and we’re talking about subjective things, anyways.
in fact, i don’t use performances on the AR as much as scenes in the OT, because usually, I get started on performances, and then reach the p-lock limit and think to myself : ah well, that’s that then. And I record what I have and move on happily. I suppose it makes it faster when writing. I could get lost for hours on the OT playing with scenes !
finally, just because it has lots of p-locks, doesn’t mean it’s awesome. usually it sounds more like scary rattle of doom

djadonis206 · 2015-02-17T12:59:53.000Z

The OT is stereo and the AR plays samples in mono. They sound sonically different.

The song and chain features on the AR are more advanced and intuitive than the OT.

They sound and work well together.

154 · 2015-02-17T13:10:26.000Z

The Octa has more LFO’s per track/sound than the AR which for me makes all the difference when trying to do those evolving soundscapes Octa really does so well. Maybe Overbridge can bring in extra LFO’s?

Also Octa has way more different fx, per track. Maybe in the future, not just more machines, but also more fx for the AR?

Filters on the AR are really intense, love them. And so much bass. Low tom indeed, punching like a modded 606. Lovely, just lovely…

enryo · 2015-02-18T17:19:09.000Z

This sounds great, not the kind of music I make, but it’s an Octatrack being used in quite a straightforward way, without the crazy glitchy stuff/loop chopping that it’s famous for.

It’s pretty much the straightforward way I would use it, just as a great sampler sequencer, almost like an RMx1 combined with an EMU.

I guess that’s one of the reasons I’ve been interested in the RYTM, it can be deep, but also it’s straightforward.

I’d almost be more inclined to get a RYTM without the rhythm part… just an 8 part sampler/sequencer with some nice analogue filters and compression… ha, basically an octatrack with the analogue signal paths and Overbridge… alas it does’t exist.

Actually the sound quality of the Octa in that youtube video sounds great and filters over those stabs sound really nice to me too. This sways me towards the Octa. I don’t need the analogue drums at all and I think the Octa sounds great here using samples from other hardware.

Could make that same track using a RYTHM? I think you probably could???

sombunall · 2015-02-22T08:30:57.000Z

Based on what you say you want - a mostly sample-based workflow - I agree with everyone else that the Octatrack seems like the easy answer.

They are both great, but the Octatrack suits your needs better. Also, the digital filters on the Octatrack really do sound nice. If nobody has talked about it here maybe you can search the old elektron-users forum because I seem to remember people waxing on and on about their love of the Octa filters.

I think you would be annoyed with having to use C6- that is super clunky compared to drag-and-drop to the Octa or the CF card. I do not recommend purchasing a RYTM expecting Overbridge to make that process any better. Sure, it will probably do that, but there are no promises yet from Elektron and you should really buy expensive gear like this based on its capabilities at this moment. If you are cool with C6 and not too concerned with bit depth then maybe think about a Machinedrum. 16 sample tracks and resampling with a great digital drum synth.

I like all of the machines, but Octatrack for you.

enryo · 2015-02-27T20:07:08.000Z

Thanks everyone… bought an Octatrack and looking forward to getting stuck in