Octatrack... Octatrack

Ononon · 2014-01-28T22:33:11.000Z

What about two Octatracks playing together. Anyone try this?
Can they be synced (tight, tight, tight) but still be each on their own, or would one have to be the master OT?

Old_Artsutanov · 2014-01-28T22:45:30.000Z

I have 2 OTs. They sync perfectly. You can set one to mirror the other, so selecting tracks, cross fader movements etc etc on the master will effect the same parameters on the other, or you can simply use the master OTs transport to start and stop and work the 2 OTs faders and knobs independently. As mentioned in a different thread, with 2 OTs you can also automate one of the OT s fader movement via midi cc, which is nice.

StinkyBeat · 2014-01-28T22:49:17.000Z

As you mention in your first post, slice-chains are the way to pull this off with the OT.

If you start with a prerecorded sample of silence, filling your slice-chain with samples is easy as copy-paste. Just think of creating the slice-chain for a track as the OT’s method of assigning a sample to a trigger for each track. Changing up a sample is as easy as deleting the one out of the chain and pasting the new one in. I leave chunks of silence between samples if I plan on changing out samples in the chain and set the slice points manually.

The functionality you seek is there.

RoyShade · 2014-01-28T23:11:01.000Z

…Alright. So it means that you can’t have something like a cymbal ride on each beat ring out on top of itself. It would be cut off.

Use two tracks for this. Since you can have multiple samples on a track, there’s a lot of room to play there. I suppose you could think of the track as a choke group?

…But so if I wanted to make it ring out on top of itself anyway, I could put a reverb on it, right? And then would that reverb go on all the trigs/sounds on that track, or only on that trig/sound?

Reverb is per-track so ‘all of the sounds’ if I understand you correctly. You can also run a master track which uses up/replaces track 8 and put the effect there.

My personal observation with the OT is that it’s not a DAW but an instrument. I’m sure folks feel different, but personally, it does its own stuff and makes its own sound. Some folks move their live set from their PC to the OT, but I don’t see that, personally. For example, for me, the effects are not a strong point if you want to do what a delay typically does or do what a comb filter typically does. I wouldn’t take something that needs reverb and expect the OT’s verb to do the job. On the other hand, I would expect to take something and make sounds out of it, and the reverb and the comb filter for sure, would play a roll in crafting that.

RoyShade · 2014-01-28T23:13:38.000Z

""Artsutanov"":

I have 2 OTs. They sync perfectly. You can set one to mirror the other, so selecting tracks, cross fader movements etc etc on the master will effect the same parameters on the other, or you can simply use the master OTs transport to start and stop and work the 2 OTs faders and knobs independently. As mentioned in a different thread, with 2 OTs you can also automate one of the OT s fader movement via midi cc, which is nice.

Are you saying slice-chains get around the monophonic limitation or something else? I’m super curious. I played around with slice-chains and didn’t find a use for them beyond saving slots or using an LFO to change samples. (Which is awesome but I haven’t found a use for it.)

Ononon · 2014-01-28T23:25:18.000Z

""cleverconqueso"":

…Alright. So it means that you can’t have something like a cymbal ride on each beat ring out on top of itself. It would be cut off.

Use two tracks for this. Since you can have multiple samples on a track, there’s a lot of room to play there. I suppose you could think of the track as a choke group?

…But so if I wanted to make it ring out on top of itself anyway, I could put a reverb on it, right? And then would that reverb go on all the trigs/sounds on that track, or only on that trig/sound?

Reverb is per-track so ‘all of the sounds’ if I understand you correctly. You can also run a master track which uses up/replaces track 8 and put the effect there.

My personal observation with the OT is that it’s not a DAW but an instrument. I’m sure folks feel different, but personally, it does its own stuff and makes its own sound. Some folks move their live set from their PC to the OT, but I don’t see that, personally. For example, for me, the effects are not a strong point if you want to do what a delay typically does or do what a comb filter typically does. I wouldn’t take something that needs reverb and expect the OT’s verb to do the job. On the other hand, I would expect to take something and make sounds out of it, and the reverb and the comb filter for sure, would play a roll in crafting that.

Ok thanks. I get what you mean about it being an instrument. I guess I just think of samplers (and I suppose when I say samplers, I probably mean some old Akai machine in one incarnation or another—but a sampler in the most basic sense is just a recording device, or a bunch of little recorders that work together) not as DAWs but still as instruments to make collages with, rather than ‘sounds’. I take this sample and this other sample, and when I put them together, something new happens. Sampling for me was always first and foremost about listening out for the good sample to take. The OT sounds a little bit more like ‘take whatever the hell sample you want and tweak the nuts out of that thing!—times eight!’… which as far as hardware samplers go is fairly unique and great (but yes I see that it’s more than that).

Ononon · 2014-01-28T23:30:11.000Z

""StinkyBeat"":

As you mention in your first post, slice-chains are the way to pull this off with the OT.

If you start with a prerecorded sample of silence, filling your slice-chain with samples is easy as copy-paste. Just think of creating the slice-chain for a track as the OT’s method of assigning a sample to a trigger for each track. Changing up a sample is as easy as deleting the one out of the chain and pasting the new one in. I leave chunks of silence between samples if I plan on changing out samples in the chain and set the slice points manually.

The functionality you seek is there.

Thanks StinkyBeat. (Fun track by the way!)

I think I kind of understand. I relented and downloaded the manual now. Skimming through it, it looks a little like also perhaps the thing called “Sample Locks” is a bit the functionality I seek?

If I first assign a bunch of samples to a machine/track, then I can just hold a trig and scroll through those samples and assign them to that trig?
Is this correct?

And if so: can I do that to all 16 trigs across, or only to the first (or the second, their assignment confuses me) 8 trigs?

DrRock · 2014-01-29T02:30:16.000Z

Yes, correct, provided you load at least 16 samples into the pool and assign them to the tracks/ trigs. if you do this you might consider halving the tempo multiplier (which can be per track or globally) so that each trig plays longer but still fit on the one page. The octatrack is good at auto timestretch when you dont bend it too far, so that can help if you need to use random stuff too.
hope this makes sense

joshEjosh · 2014-01-29T02:44:54.000Z

""Kujak"":

[quote=“StinkyBeat”]As you mention in your first post, slice-chains are the way to pull this off with the OT.

If you start with a prerecorded sample of silence, filling your slice-chain with samples is easy as copy-paste. Just think of creating the slice-chain for a track as the OT’s method of assigning a sample to a trigger for each track. Changing up a sample is as easy as deleting the one out of the chain and pasting the new one in. I leave chunks of silence between samples if I plan on changing out samples in the chain and set the slice points manually.

The functionality you seek is there.

Thanks StinkyBeat. (Fun track by the way!)

I think I kind of understand. I relented and downloaded the manual now. Skimming through it, it looks a little like also perhaps the thing called “Sample Locks” is a bit the functionality I seek?

If I first assign a bunch of samples to a machine/track, then I can just hold a trig and scroll through those samples and assign them to that trig?
Is this correct?

And if so: can I do that to all 16 trigs across, or only to the first (or the second, their assignment confuses me) 8 trigs?
[/quote]
Yes, in order to trigger a sample, it must be assigned to a slot. There are 128 slots for static machines, and 128 for flex (I think). You can sample-lock a different sample on every step of a pattern if you like. If you have a track in slice mode, you can p-lock the slice number as well, as it’s just another parameter. This can also be controlled by an LFO, or you can slide p-locked slice numbers between steps. Yes… now your brain will start thinking about all of the crazy mangulation you can do.

If the track is not in slice mode, the slice parameter becomes the ‘start’ parameter, and it can be LFO’d and p-locked into crazy-land in the same manner.

So… it’s not a keyboard sampler with multiple voices and all that. It’s not Ableton either. It’s got it’s own thing going on. Your samples can be loops, whole songs, single hits, or even single waveforms. You can load the same sample file into multiple slots with different settings too.

The OT is a very strange land, but it’s fun once you learn the local customs.

DrRock · 2014-01-29T02:53:05.000Z

Also, now i think of it. Any concern about samples being cut off can be sorted by using 2 tracks if you need a longer decay, and then resampling.

Ononon · 2014-01-29T07:20:12.000Z

Ok good. But a ‘slot’ is simply a ‘virtual’ place inside a machine/track, right? You designate a machine to a track and then load samples into that machines ‘slots’ and then… you assign the samples from that machine’s slots into or onto a physical button which is a trig. But the trigs can, if you want it to, catch a new or different sample from whatever is loaded into the slots?

So then, on average, if possible to say; how many samples do you usually have up on the trigs on any one track? Or how many samples do you usually have per track, in general (I see that this question may not make sense seeing as everything can be changed around so much all the time, but imma ask it still…):

So, one sample per track? 16 samples per track? More than 16 samples (that keeps changing around) per track?

Thanks.

J_C_Selector · 2014-01-29T08:42:38.000Z

128 samples per project to use on any track.
You need to get your head around how Elektron names everything ; tracks/scenes/parts ect, as other companies use different names.
Have a read “OT thoughts” by Merlin in the “files” section, I think this will answer all your questions (or make your brain explode).

Ononon · 2014-01-29T10:03:33.000Z

""J_C_Selector"":

128 samples per project to use on any track.
You need to get your head around how Elektron names everything ; tracks/scenes/parts ect, as other companies use different names.
Have a read “OT thoughts” by Merlin in the “files” section, I think this will answer all your questions (or make your brain explode).

Thanks, good tip. I was reading the manual last night and I think I get the hierarchy of how things live in there at least. It’s more trying to understand how it’s musical—that is to say, is it a machine to play and make music or is it more a machine to process and change music, if you understand what I mean (of course, who can say what any of those things mean anyway, but, that’s what I have, word-wise).

In the Octatrack manual introduction what Elektron themselves propose is to look at the OT as: “looper device”, “radical sound processor”, “a backing track machine”, “live setup hub”, “remix tool” or “effects unit extraordiaire”, with short explanations beneath each proposed use. And from what I’ve learned here, all those things sound about correct.

So I’m trying to get my head around how (or if) people use the Octatrack in maybe more melodic, or subtle, or completely unexpected ways. To say that if you want samples to layer on top of each other, you can only have 8 samples—is either a ridiculous limitation or a fantastic opportunity for lots of other things. If I think of the Octatrack as first having just ONE track, like a monophonic Machinedrum that can only play samples, and then multiply that by EIGHT it suddenly becomes a very unlimited and vast machine, at least in my mind.

But all your replies are making how it works clearer, so thanks for that, it’s much appreciated!

So, on average, how many samples do you usually have going per track, or all in all?

How often do you use one track as a master track? Always?

J_C_Selector · 2014-01-29T11:56:53.000Z

Myself, at the moment I just use the 8 tracks/8 samples. Some tracks might have a drum loop that is sliced then I play those slices (kick, snare, hats) like a drum machine, on the one track and this gets recorded to make a new beat (trigs not audio).
Again, read the above mentioned pdf, it really helps to understand things.
The thing with the Octa is there are sooooo many ways to use it, from being a set of DJ decks to a full blown wavetable synth …

miketheman · 2014-01-29T11:56:55.000Z

It all depends on the situation.

Playing live, I think 8 tracks are quite a lot for a user to keep “track” on what´s going on and where to go next. In that sense I guess many are using less tracks for the tweak duties, and perhaps the remaining tracks for some automatic stuff running in the background.

Playing in studio, I think many users may see the OT as an very versatile tool that they can rely on “solving” things. Solving in the sense of: getting an soundidea in the head, and just turning to the OT to conjure that with whatever basic sound to start from.

8 tracks may sound limiting but an example:

Track 1-7: each holding an separate part of a “drumkit” as per default sample.
Track 8: flex recorder, recording the main outputs.

This “start” setup would give you the possibility to use track 1-7 as your mini MachineDrum, as you hit Record on the sequencer it will fetch all hits you where you want(/hit) them.

Now you got an “drumloop” going, and you´re able to sculpt the sound of each track(/drum) by using the effects. You may want them a little bit more “human”, so you could make use of the LFO to varying the volume just slightly.
When done, you may then use track 8 to record the whole kit you´ve just created/played in track 1-7. When captured, remove any recorder trigs. From now on you´re able to slice it up if you want some varitions (that you don´t want to play out yourself). Just set an LFO to varying the (slice)startpoint. No matter if you do slice it or not, you´re able to set track 8 to play (looping). Now you´ve got this whole kit playing in the background.

And you´re then able to use track 1-7 for whatever other duties you may see fit (bass, synth parts), either by utilizing readymade samples or by sample yourself via the inputs with your external gear (i e switch the tracks to using flex recorders).

As you can see, there are certain things that can be seen as similar to an portable multitrack recorder, in which you normally are able to record from separate input channels. Whenever you need more tracks, you´ll need to bounce down to an stereo track to be able to set some channels aviable for recording more stuff.
The big difference here is that the OT got the possibility to use samples, which you trigger AND then are able to record. That would be close to having (in this example) an external small drummachine/module (always) connected to your multitrack recorder.

Take it the other way around, say that you´ve got an great sounding drumsample on your multitrack (i e 4 bars). But you´d really like to have another drumpattern/rhythm of it.
With the OT you´re able to dive into that very sample and slice it up so you´ll get each drum hit separated. Play them, and then utilize the abovementioned method to bounce it down again. That would be similar to having an sampler (always) connected to your multitrack recorder, in which you can sample, sculpt and then play back each hit and record that in your multitrack recorder again.

Funny thing is that even here, we´re just barely scratching the surface. You´ve got the fader that allows you to morph between parameter settings, which can be set to alter each and every track in many ways (less or more). You could i e tie it to the rate parameters and have your abovementioned looping kit (track 1-7) acting like it comes from an vinyl (which you can slow down to the point where it doesn´t revolve at all, rate = 0).
You could record that instead, when you´re about to capturing all this in track 8 (as described above). Or if you choose to it afterwards with the track 8 recording (which still can play variations of the slices you made first).

I´m not 100% sure, and others may chime in or correct me. But I think that all of this may even be possible to perform in realtime without any sound dropout anywhere. Thanks to the fact that you´ve got the Main/Cue outputs which you can choose to listen too when doing your slicing/editing before letting it all out for anyone to hear…

IMHO, OT gives you 8 tracks of freedom that you´re able to use in many different ways.

DrRock · 2014-01-29T23:25:35.000Z

Some more sobering thoughts, following the detailed advice above- if you are considering the octatrack, be aware that it can be arcane and somewhat arbitrary to use. This is a blessing for the prepared, but a mess of cursing for others. If like me you manage to find a middle ground, then go forth in peace
Yes, it’s best to think of this as an instrument and i’ve found that you’d expect to play 2 or 3 things at once without losing your shit. Sure- you can create presets for certain modes of operation that suit you, but unless you are very structured you’ll find yourself jamming, sometimes recording it, sometimes lost to the ether. Try to record everything on a separate 2 track!
Its a shock to compare the file structure to other samplers, and working on the small screen can be a pain.
Depending on the type of music you like to play will determine the accessibilty of the features.
If you like EDM stuff I would expect once live sampling was understood you’d fly with it
I try to integrate the octatrack with other musicians that dont play to a strict tempo, and a lot of the features arent so useful there, in fact some of them are plain broke for this purpose. On the other hand i wouldnt really expect them to either, as there are many variables.

license · 2014-01-29T23:53:01.000Z

Quick thought about having a single sound play on top of itself without cutting off the previous instances: if it’s at a regular interval (like every beat), you can use the delay for this. Just set the delay to that interval, p-lock feedback to maximum on the trig for the sound, and do another trigless lock toward the end of the bar to set the feedback down so its volume doesn’t get out of control.

sabo · 2014-01-30T01:15:49.000Z

i think the hands on and musical part of the octatrack comes from knob tweakage and crossfader manipulation. you can do some fun finger drumming, and even set the trigs that are played in real time to be quantized while playing. but the lack of multisamples, mute/trig relationship between voices, velocity sensitive sample crossfading, and aftertouch (all of which are mpc features) makes padstyle finger drumming significantly less interesting musically. but knob twiddling and xfader fuckery, as well as jumping between contrasting scenes, can be very satisfying musically. and if finger drumming isnt your forte (such as myself), these forms of musical expression might even be preferable.

Ononon · 2014-01-30T15:13:27.000Z

Hey, thanks to all of you for super interesting and enlightening answers. It’s really great to read them.

miketheman: I’m assuming your little red banner means you’re Elektron staff. Great to read your take on it. It was fun to read in the introduction of the manual what the initial idea to making the OT was, and it makes me curious to know now what the thoughts on the machine are in hindsight. Also what experiences or thoughts (if any) from the OT went into the design of Analog Rytm.

[left]Special thanks to J_C_Selector for directing me to the “OT thoughts” by Merlin in the “files” section. That thing gives a ridiculously good and clear insight into the structure and working of the Octatrack. Combining that one with the replies here and the manual, I feel I have a pretty good grasp of it now.[/left]

[left]I spoke to a guy in a music store about it (they were out, he said they’d been waiting to get new shipment for a while—it’s also sold out on Elektrons website… when can we expect more?); for him the OT was too convoluted and un-intuitive. Too many button combinations; too many submenus.[/left]

[left]More and more I’ve been thinking that a perhaps a good analogy for the Octatrack (as much as an analogy is possible, or even necessary) is to think of it as an eight track tape-recorder. I think it was the guy in the store, when I complained about the 8 tracks being monophonic, who said: “yeah but they’re audio tracks”. And then it made much more sense. An 8-track tape recorder, but where you can stick your hands in and mess with and re-arrange any of the 8-tracks at any time, while it’s running. [/left]

[left]Maybe 8 turntables hooked up to a mixer is also an analogy that works. [/left]

Ononon · 2014-01-30T15:26:14.000Z

""sabo"":

i think the hands on and musical part of the octatrack comes from knob tweakage and crossfader manipulation.

Yes, this is definitely the impression one gets when just reading about it. And I’m not totally sure how I feel about that.

I think for me sampling as a musical tool is a lot about how you order and tape the samples together; so, structure in a way. And how, if you build a track from nothing but samples, that structure (rather than tweakage) becomes the important part. At least for me. And so then it becomes important what samples trail over into the sample below it, or which sample cuts it of and so on. Having the hiss in the silence from one sample become the background to the start of another etc… On an MPC if I used it live, I would mostly use it to mute and unmute tracks in the sequencer. And because you can have so many tracks, in just one bar or in one 4-bar sequence, you could build a whole song just from muting and un-muting inside that sequence; building it up and taking it apart again.

And however much the Octatrack is it’s own thing and however much (or not) Elektron consciously decided to not make another MPC or a replacement for it, from what I understand so far, the OT lends itself quite well to a ton of possibilities when it comes to muting and unmuting and re-structuring and arranging your tracks. And that this can also be a very hands on musical part of it.

Or?