Octatrack midi cc delay( send priority )

[shougan]

Hello everyone, i having an issue with midi CC send to external synth, here is the deal:

The OT connected to waldorf blofeld via midi out.

a single midi pattern with 4 note trigs, on a second trig i created a parameter lock with envelope decay set to 0, on a third trig – lock with default decay value:

• • • • º - - - º - - - - - - -
        ∞ - - - ∞ - - - ∞ - - - ∞ - - -

and what happened is that the second trig playing with the default decay value( but should play with 0 ), and the third – with 0( should with default ).

So i decided to check midi data with midi monitor, and it figures that OT send CC after the NoteOn, so the blofeld plays the note and only after that changes the decay value.

Check the data:

22:27:03.045 From Plug 1 Note On 1 C2 100
22:27:03.169 From Plug 1 Note Off 1 C2 0
22:27:03.546 From Plug 1 Note On 1 C2 100
22:27:03.546 From Plug 1 Control 1 Controller 102 0
22:27:03.669 From Plug 1 Note Off 1 C2 0
22:27:04.045 From Plug 1 Note On 1 C2 100
22:27:04.046 From Plug 1 Control 1 Controller 102 66
22:27:04.169 From Plug 1 Note Off 1 C2 0
22:27:04.544 From Plug 1 Note On 1 C2 100
22:27:04.669 From Plug 1 Note Off 1 C2 0

Сhecked same pattern with ablenon live, and with hardware sequenser – CC appears before NoteOn

Am i doing something wrong or should i submit an issue ticket?

[gbravetti]

Can you move just the CC one step before and use micro timing to move them as close as possible to the intended ?

EDIT: btw if the CC is to control the decay, I think you don’t need even to micro timing, just place it on the previous step (if empty)

[avantronica]

fwiw, and vaguely from memory, I think the Blofeld will not change its architecture (or certain aspects of) once it is sounding (ie after note on) - so for another synth, this would probably work, my hunch is that the Blofeld is the exception -in some regards this sounds like a big pain and it’d be easy to compare with another, I just sorta remember being told about something exactly like this by Stefan stenzel at waldorf
.
edit: - setting a midi plock as 0 isn’t a default or normal state, if i read op correctly, it’s setting that value to zero
.
blofeld sets up a model at each note on, some params can be changed, some not (during playthtrough)

[Clancy]

Finding I have to put CCs one step before note for jomox mbase

[slingdinger]

I’m have a similar problem. Have you found a solution?

[BloopityDoopity]

guys, this is a bug … you should report it to elektron using the support ticket system:

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the more people who report it, the better our chances of having it fixed.

for your information, they have handled CC sequencing properly on the MonoMachine … I have created a thread requesting the differences between the Octatrack and MonoMachine in terms of midi sequencing, and this Octatrack CC Delay bug was mentioned there and has been discussed a bit. if you wish to read it and add your thoughts to that thread also, it can be found here:

MnM midi sequencing VS OT midi sequencing

Hi all, I'm a long time MD uw mk1 user, and recently picked up an Octatrack. i've wanted a MnM for sometime, but the planets never aligned and it never happened. one of the draws was its midi sequencing abilities, which added to its appeal and possible usefulness in my setup. so, ultimately I'm just curious if there's any differences between midi sequencing capabilities between MnM and the OT, and/or if one does everything the other does plus more. assuming the Octatrack is the superior midi…

[Autopoiesis]

Bug report submitted.

[tsutek]

How do I reproduce this bug? When Starting from a blank new project?

Some bugs only start creeping up after something else happening within a project, so we need to be able to reproduce this from a blank, fresh project. Being able to do so will help the tickets getting the point across.

[Autopoiesis]

To reproduce this behavior:

1. Lay down a note trig on a MIDI track (e.g., note F3 with a velocity of 127, on step 2 of MIDI track 1)
2. Parameter-lock a CC message (e.g., CC#1 / modwheel to value 70) on that same step (step 2 of MIDI track 1)
3. Observe the output on a MIDI monitoring tool (here’s a free one for OSX)

The log of sequential MIDI data will look like:

Note On 1 F3 127
Controller 1 Modulation Wheel 70
Note Off 1 F3 0

Say you’re sequencing a synth whose filter and amp envelopes have a really quick attack, and say CC#1 controls the FM index of that synth. When step 2 triggers, you’ll hear the filter and amp open up, and then you’ll very quickly but often perceptibly hear the FM index jump to the value you p-locked it to. The amount of delay between Note On and the CC message, and so the perceptibility of this, will depend on how much MIDI data you’re chugging out and where the receiving synth is in your MIDI chain. It sounds glitchy and it’s not controllable.

If you were to do this on the or , you’d see:

Controller 1 Modulation Wheel 70    
Note On 1 F3 127
Note Off 1 F3 0

And so right before the envelope even opens, the FM index is locked to the level you want it, and you don’t hear it step to that value mid-note. This is also how it works when you p-lock timbral parameters on the OT’s audio tracks or any of the other Elektron machines’ internal sequencers.

I’ve seen this happen for entirely new project as well as for projects I’ve worked on for months, and several owners have written about this, here and on Muffwiggler. Some examples:

• OT Known Bugs & Workarounds Document
• MnM midi sequencing VS OT midi sequencing

Aside: It’s unclear whether this MIDI behavior was intentionally designed (maybe to address some tradeoff) and there’s just an apparent consensus that this is not how CC and Note On data should be sequentially ordered, or whether this is classically a bug in the sense of unintended behavior. Either way, I see this as something more than an idiosyncratic feature request.

[tsutek]

Would it be possible to get around this problem by using a second midi track for the CCs, and offsetting the events via microtiming?

[avantronica]

Yep, each midi track can be any MIDI chan

[robertmc]

00000A74 3 – 9F 3C 64 16 C 4 Note On
00000A75 3 – BF 0A 04 16 — CC: PAN
00000B18 3 – 9F 3C 00 16 C 4 Note Off

As of OS 1.25H this is the order Octatrack is sending MIDI instructions. The only way I can see to workaround this is double programming of the steps. (earlier step for CC or worse, eat another track)

Any feedback from Elektron?

[yentz]

i would be really interested in this as well. cant manage to map velocity to cc in the eventprocessor

[funkymogli]

Any news on this? Is it fixed?

[sezare56]

Don’t think so. I use Event Processor Plus to control slices and I can reorder midi data.

[PeterHanes]

Any news on this? Is it fixed?

There has been no new software revision since 1.25H, so no change. I imagine it is planned behaviour, rather than a bug, strictly speaking.

[sezare56]

Oops I meant I don’t think so.

[Finiiiie]

So is this just a feature we have to live with on the ot? Why would they plan such a behaviour?

All my midi tracks are slightly lagged which is annoying when wanting to sequence faster patterns. Are there any decent workarounds? Nudging the trig back means its unable to trigger patterns starting on the 1st step, so that isn’t ideal

[PeterHanes]

All my midi tracks are slightly lagged which is annoying when wanting to sequence faster patterns.

I don’t understand what you mean by this. Can you explain more? What are your MIDI tracks lagging behind? What MIDI messages are you sending to what instrument?

[Paland]

I’m going to bump this one. I never use the midi sequencer much, but i just bought a piece of gear with the OT sequencer and CC capability in mind, and they were going to be best friends. Then i found this out the hard way.

Why is this even a thing? I’d like to know the reason behind it since It makes no sense at all in my head.