Note takeover clicks

[coralhex]

There’s one persistent weirdness with the OT voicing architecture that I’m still at wits’ end about. When a track is triggered over the same track’s playing sample, there’s at variable volume a click, no matter how you ramp the attack. I’m thinking, since ATK is ineffective, that it occurs not at the beginning of the note, but at the cut-off end of the previous one. And since the volume varies per instance, it seems like it’s a case of the waveform being cut short without proper micro-fade or zero-crossing alignment, thus clicking variably depending on the amplitude from zero.

The click does occur pre-FX, which means you can just low-pass it away for non-treble material. But for anything else it’s an utter and total drag.

Anyone else inventing swearwords tackling this?
Should I just post this to HQ and cross my fingers?

I’ve worked with everything from ST-224, Ensoniq Mirage/ESQ/ASR-s, Electribes, Boss/Roland-SPs to EMU and Yamaha rack samplers and nothing has ever given me this headache before.

[hereiamhere75]

oh yes, i remember when i first noticed that problem.
can´t remember how i got rid of this. i think i tried to smooth
it out with trigless trigs or maybe i edited the sample to
the correct loop length (?)
fortunately i never ran into this again.
when i started doing electronic music my standard solution
for untidy loops always has been putting a big fat crash cymbal
on that place - lol

[coralhex]

can´t remember how i got rid of this. i think i tried to smooth it out with trigless trigs

You mean p-lock a fade for each note? Hmm. You could, if they’re long notes, but it would change the sound. For arpeggios, sliced drum hits or basically anything at higher note resolution there’s just not enough automation space.

I guess one way could be to use a custom lfo fading VOL, triggered per TRIG. But then you’d be limited to a fixed note-length. Not cool.

or maybe i edited the sample to the correct loop length (?)

Not sure I understand what you mean. The jinx I’m talking about is not relative to the loop point (it does the same thing for single-cycle waves). It’s more like it’s the pre-FX audio stream that is cut off (or re-initialized) in a jagged/aliased way.

fortunately i never ran into this again.

Try loading a looping sine wave into a default flex machine and trig the track a few times and you will.
Then do the same on an ESX-1 and listen to what it’s supposed to sound like.

when i started doing electronic music my standard solution for untidy loops always has been putting a big fat crash cymbal on that place - lol

Hah. Right on. Still do that.

[coralhex]

Here’s the issue illustrated with a sine wave from the AKWF waves. ATK 1 and REL 90. The first notes run their envelope cycles and behave as expected. After that the notes are triggered in more rapid succession. Note the difference. Sorry about the noisy recording.

https://soundcloud.com/blackpyramidinc/ot-sinewave-retrig-issue/s-DaWRm

Do you find this acceptable?

[CallOffTheVote]

Been getting stressed here with clicks/pops in slices mode. Similar issue/same OS problem I guess? Is the ESX-1 polyphonic? I’m thinking maybe with a monophonic track it could be impossible to avoid clicks/pops if triggering a sample before the previous one has finished as there’s no time for the OT to add a fade out…

Looks like I’m gonna either be doing all that kind of stuff with midi/external hardware and sample to a track or exporting stems to daw at final mix and running problem tracks through something like Waves X-Crackle… I normally use that plug in on tracks in Daw if I can’t be bothered to go in and do fades… Cuts all clicks/pops without losing any noticeable frequency etc. I was planning on exporting stems anyway so I can run through tape so it’s not a huge deal. Just kind of annoying to have to hear the clicks/pops until songs are ready to leave the OT environment.

[coralhex]

Been getting stressed here with clicks/pops in slices mode. Similar issue/same OS problem I guess?

Yeah, slices click like crazy despite being cut at zero-crossings. It gets really bad when you start pitching the slices down (without stretching), meaning - when the audio starts overlapping. See above.

Is the ESX-1 polyphonic? I’m thinking maybe with a monophonic track it could be impossible to avoid clicks/pops if triggering a sample before the previous one has finished as there’s no time for the OT to add a fade out…

No. The keyboard parts on the ESX-1 (and the other parts for that matter) are monophonic with individual envelopes. Very similar setup to the OT in this respect. Using the same single-cycle wave I get super slick note transitions. At zero gate settings, the arpeggiator even turns the note stream into a continuous audio flow. Let’s remember - that’s a $500 groovebox sampler released 12 years ago.

And for any of the SP-X0Xs (even the 202!), re-triggering the same pad never clicked on me as long as the sample start is clean. Granted, they don’t have envelopes to reset, but it’s an otherwise comparable scenario.

Looks like I’m gonna either be doing all that kind of stuff with midi/external hardware and sample to a track or exporting stems to daw at final mix and running problem tracks through something like Waves X-Crackle.

Yeah, you can get around it. But X-Crackle has only been partially effective in my experience. Also, that’s a bogus part of a workflow. I can dig bouncing stems to tape for dynamics and character, but having to put my tracks through expensive plugins to repair damage is not cool.

[PeterHanes]

There’s one persistent weirdness with the OT voicing architecture that I’m still at wits’ end about. When a track is triggered over the same track’s playing sample, there’s at variable volume a click, no matter how you ramp the attack.

…

What settings do you have for AMP envelope behaviour, SYNC, and ATCK in the AMP SETUP menu on the problematic tracks?

[coralhex]

[quote=“coralhex”]There’s one persistent weirdness with the OT voicing architecture that I’m still at wits’ end about. When a track is triggered over the same track’s playing sample, there’s at variable volume a click, no matter how you ramp the attack.

What settings do you have for AMP envelope behaviour, SYNC, and ATCK in the AMP SETUP menu on the problematic tracks?[/quote]
This is really relevant. For the sine wave SCW example above I tried every combination: ANLG, RTRG, R+T and TTRG, SYNC ON/OFF and both LOG and LIN. The behaviour is - frustratingly - identical regardless of these. I thought I heard a fraction less (or “warmer”) clicks using LOG attack ramp, but trying it out extensively I think it was wishful listening on my part.

[coralhex]

The artifacts are clearly visible in an audio editor.

Up close, it seems like there are no broken sample cycles, just an added amplitude hiccup of - maybe - the envelope resetting.

[avantronica]

if you set attack at 1 (not 0, too fast) it should be fine, works perfectly for me

[coralhex]

if you set attack at 1 (not 0, too fast) it should be fine, works perfectly for me

The recording and the waveform screen dumps were made with ATK 1. Also, as stated, any value for ATK will produce the artifact provided the audio has ramped up to an audible level.

Try replicating the use-case as described.
If you’re not getting this, then I’d be awesomely happy and get my OT replaced.
Elektron support has confirmed the problem though - so I’m not getting my hopes up.
There also doesn’t seem to be a known workaround besides filtering/tweaking.

[coralhex]

I also want to point out that this is not a problem limited to single-cycle waves. Sample anything and slice it. If you adjust the rate of any slice down (either pitch or stretch), or even just nudge the tempo ever so slightly up from the original (thus creating overlapping slices), the OT will introduce severe clicking at playback, regardless of AMP or AMP SETUP settings. These are bad enough in their raw state, but drop a limiter and a bit of treble sizzle and you’re in click-hop heaven. Great if you’re into that. Kangaroo bollocks for everbody else.

[avantronica]

sorry - maybe i didn’t read through thoroughly, i thought the gist of it was that low freq sin samples would click at note change - i just threw an 80Hzsin in (a few cycles, zero crossing exact) - it clicked on initial trigging (all down to AMP) or overlapping, setting the attack to 1 cured it - even though it sounded like that had been tried, i thought i’d throw the comment in - i’ll reread to get my head around the nuances

[coralhex]

sorry - maybe i didn’t read through thoroughly, i thought the gist of it was that low freq sin samples would click at note change - i just threw an 80Hzsin in (a few cycles, zero crossing exact) - it clicked on initial trigging (all down to AMP) or overlapping, setting the attack to 1 cured it - even though it sounded like that had been tried, i thought i’d throw the comment in - i’ll reread to get my head around the nuances

Thanks avantronica.
No matter-of-factness intended.
I didn’t think the thread was going to end up this wordy.
The recording hopefully isolates the issue.
Any feedback appreciated.

[avantronica]

to be fair - i’m not entirely clear why the test i tried wouldn’t be applicable from what you described - you didn’t explicitly mention slices in OP, why would a few cycles of an 80Hz sin looped not reveal the issue - it sorta does, until you tame the amp attack !

[coralhex]

to be fair - i’m not entirely clear why the test i tried wouldn’t be applicable from what you described - you didn’t explicitly mention slices in OP, why would a few cycles of an 80Hz sin looped not reveal the issue - it sorta does, until you tame the amp attack !

Right. It might very well reveal it.

The recording posted is illustrating an issue where regular notes triggered and let run their envelope cycle behave as expected (ie don’t click), and note “takeovers” or re-triggers suddenly, intermittently, do.

If you don’t get clicks with legato notes after setting ATK to 1, then your results differ from mine. That’d be very interesting.

[avantronica]

i can shed a bit of light on the differences
.

1. i was trying with chromatic mode
   .
2. now if i try with trigs (even with the same settings) i get the clicks
   .
   so it’s a bit puzzling that even playing the same phrases at the same rate the sequencer serves up a different audio !!!

[coralhex]

That’s interesting.

I did above recording just punching a trig in chromatic mode. Approximately every other note would click. But sometimes you get a “lucky hand” with stretches of many notes that don’t. Haven’t figured out why, but i think it possibly has to do with whether the previous note is cut off at a low or high amplitude “from-zero”.

[coralhex]

I re-revisited the AMP SETUP page (thanks PeterHanes) and although no setting truly makes it bearable, there are slight nuances between the settings. The smoothest and least midrangy clicks happen with settings AMP: R+T, SYNC: ON and ATCK: LIN. Deviating from that setting seems to create more variable in volume, wider-spectrum clicks. Again, these are very slight differences.

[avantronica]

just thought i’d add a comment here, this must have been well discussed before … i noticed the differences in playback of a sliced 808 kit, on ANLG/TTRG it would be mostly consistent, some would click when played in free space and clicking would ‘reduce’ when slices ‘overlapped’ other toms worked the other way, some neither way … i’m guessing the accuracy of sample prep, whether or not you elect to use zero crossing detection and possibly even ram/CF playback may make a subtle difference to how it responds - whilst there is a healthy amount of options on the amp envelope, i’m not entirely convinced myself that playback is consistent, which i guess echoes the sentiment of the OP
.
understanding the retrig nature of the envelope is obviously key here, but i do wonder how consistent the ‘play head’ is and again echoing what was said above, to what extent does the current playback position (AOT amp status) within the sample affect the perceived results - it’s all a bit nuanced !