Non-Line-Level Gear into AR Input

xidnpnlss · 2015-05-21T19:50:03.000Z

""hardwarecore"":

[quote=“teomi”]RCA plugs are unbalanced and a TRS is balanced. you lost a bunch of gain doing this so that’s why things sounded quiet

…

Eitan

Thanks for that info, it certainly makes sense now. If you couldn’t tell, this is one of the areas that I definitely need to brush up on. :)[/quote]
Funnily enough, Eitan just schooled me too.
http://www.elektronauts.com/t/best-way-to-record-analog-rytm/12278page:2

ON-OFF-ON · 2015-05-22T15:15:50.000Z

Ok thanks again for all the info. I did some google reading and realized that I used the wrong terminology in the topic of this post. My question shouldn’t have been about how to plug line level devices at all. Sorry everybody I’m learning…

It should have read “How do I plug a 1/8" unbalanced stereo into the 1/4" balanced input on the AR?”

Am I correct in my understanding that all 1/8" stereo connections are unbalanced ? If they are, then it would make sense why Korg Volcas and my OP-1 are super quiet when I plug them into either the balanced inputs on my Presonus sound card or the input on the AR. I tried also using 1/8" TRS to 2x 1/4" TS on the sound card and its still quiet (peaks at like -12db with no gain). When I put gain on these instruments in my DAW they just end up sounding super hissey. I have the exact same issue when plugging the 1/8" TRS to single 1/4" TS on the Analog Rytm input except there’s no gain so it just stays quiet.

Could it be that I’m just using the wrong cables ? Is there such a thing as a balanced 1/8" stereo to 1/4" stereo cable ?

teomi · 2015-05-22T15:54:13.000Z

Hey Onoffon,

No - not all 1/8’’ stereo are unbalanced. In fact…most likely they are Balanced!

There are different ways to use a “stereo” 1/8’’ and/or 1/4’’ connector.

First off, using the term “stereo” can be misleading. A lot of people use it because of the two stripes on the tip which suggest Stereo?..not really.

the two stripes on the tip suggest that this is a connector that can be used for balanced connections and/or stereo connections.

BUT - if you want to use a single connector to wire in stereo (like any headphones out there) it’s a different internal wiring than when you are simply wiring a balanced line level cable.

You need to look into the 1/8’’ output from the Volcas… is it a stereo out or Mono out?

If it’s stereo, you will need to get a cable that is 1/8’’ Stereo to 2 x 1/4’’ TS connectors and make sure it’s wired as a stereo to 2 x mono (Left and Right).

But if the output from the Volcas is mono for some reason then you need to verify if the Volcas output is balanced or not.

If after all this, the level out of the Volcas is still quiet…then it’s just bad design I guess…

Eitan

teomi · 2015-05-22T16:42:20.000Z

If your source lacks of gain and suffers from poor signal to noise ratio, the best you can do is not add even more noise.

Since you aren’t going to invest in high-end mixing desks that offer lots of gain, the next best thing is to use your device with a DI and a clean, solid state microphone preamp.

I would advise you NOT to waste your money on cheap small mixers. Save a little bit more and get a couple of high end DI like the Countryman Model 85 and a decent and clean preamp. Then you can get the gain you want and not introduce more noise to your (already) noisy device.

Eitan

AdamJay · 2015-05-22T17:22:50.000Z

""teomi"":

If your source lacks of gain and suffers from poor signal to noise ratio, the best you can do is not add even more noise.

Since you aren’t going to invest in high-end mixing desks that offer lots of gain, the next best thing is to use your device with a DI and a clean, solid state microphone preamp.

I would advise you NOT to waste your money on cheap small mixers. Save a little bit more and get a couple of high end DI like the Countryman Model 85 and a decent and clean preamp. Then you can get the gain you want and not introduce more noise to your (already) noisy device.

Eitan

Sure, if money is no object.
But $200+ for a DI and a few hundred dollars more for a clean 2 ch preamp adds up. Especially when we are talking about the back end of a $150 battery powered analog synth (Volca Keys).

It depends on the needs of the project. The OP said he wasn’t in the best position money-wise.
For a battery powered synth, most would take a few dB less signal to noise ratio over $500 in outboard any day.

AdamJay · 2015-05-22T17:24:50.000Z

""onoffon"":

Thanks for the response. So something like a preamp/compressor pedal for guitar/bass would do the trick ?

I would actually recommend the Zoom MS-70CDR pedal. You would get some great reverb (eventide, and strymon emulations) and modulation FX to add to your Volca Keys on the way in, and the last little bit of gain you need to match the Rytm’s level.

teomi · 2015-05-22T17:30:34.000Z

That’s True AdamJay…I didn’t realize the Volca was on the cheap side…you get what you pay for I guess.

ON-OFF-ON · 2015-05-22T17:33:13.000Z

The OP-1 is the main synth I want to plug into the AR. The volca is just something I’m tooling around with while I save for an Analog Four. Money wise I don’t mind spending over time, but I only just purchased the Rytm a week ago ! Need to justify spending to my wife lol

I’ve tried a couple other configurations that just somehow worked magically. One was to plug the OP-1 output into the 1/8" input on another synth and then going 1/4" TRS into the AR. It worked with my old Yamaha keyboard and also with the electribe 2. For some reason both of those synths would have proper levels for both OP-1 and volcas. Then they output the volume correctly. Problem here is I sold the electribe and the Yamaha is way too big!

ON-OFF-ON · 2015-05-22T17:40:06.000Z

Hmmm I like adamjay’s suggestion! Synth to effect pedal then to AR.

Stickhit · 2015-05-22T17:45:20.000Z

""teomi"":

RCA plugs are unbalanced and a TRS is balanced. you lost a bunch of gain doing this so that’s why things sounded quiet

The two devices mentioned by the OP output line level.

I’m not sure why the output volume from these machines is lower than normal…

The AR’s ins and outs are Line level so you should only interface with line levels.

If these devices have a headroom issue then the only way is by boosting the gain externally using a mixer or any device (like preamp or compressor) that has output gain.

Eitan

Whilst RCA connectors can never be used to make a balanced connection and TRS connectors definitely can be used, balanced connection between two devices depends on one device having balanced outputs and one device having balanced inputs.
The advantage of a balanced connection is to do with noise reduction and is normally only necessary when using long cable runs.
I doubt if any of the Volcas have balanced outputs and though the Rytm has balanced outputs it has unbalanced inputs. Using RCA connectors should not make any difference as long as they are fully serviceable.

AdamJay · 2015-05-22T18:20:59.000Z

""onoffon"":

Hmmm I like adamjay’s suggestion! Synth to effect pedal then to AR.

If you’re going to spend some money for one primary function, why not get a few more (sweet sounding) functions out of the investment too, eh?
Good luck!

rgraphic · 2015-05-22T18:29:06.000Z

how is the level if using the A4 into the RYTM? I can avoid using a mixer if that combo works fine.

AdamJay · 2015-05-22T18:30:27.000Z

""rgraphic"":

how is the level if using the A4 into the RYTM? I can avoid using a mixer if that combo works fine.

Works fine here.

xidnpnlss · 2015-05-22T19:30:55.000Z

So since Eitans invaluable advice in the link i posted above I’ve been obsessing over un/balanced inputs, cables and different mic,line,hi-z ect. It’s a headache for sure.

Correct me if im wrong on any of this. This is after a day of sporadic yet intense research into the matter…which i know is nothing conoared to alk your experience.

The ARs input, while unbalanced, accepts +15dBu input which should be fine for line level. As far as using an unbalanced signal, considering it’s unbalanced itll be quieter than if it were balanced. or?

I did a little research into the zoom pedal and it seems the input is rated at -20dBm which is…maayyybbeee…typical to effect pedals for instrument level? However it’s interesting to see that the output is line level, +5dBm, as I was under the impression pedals are also instrument level at the output. I dont see any info on whether it’s balanced or not, so while it may not be helping THAT issue, it maybe able to add gain nonetheless.

I fully admit that may have no idea what I’m talking about.

teomi · 2015-05-22T20:28:33.000Z

The AR’s inputs are indeed unbalanced but it is simply because they use a single Phone jack in for a stereo signal…so you still need to use a TRS connector (which is balanced) but the AR is using it to feed both Left and Right sides.

So - you shouldn’t lose levels because it’s an unbalanced input.

And Unbalanced is still Line level

xidnpnlss · 2015-05-22T21:39:42.000Z

""teomi"":

The AR’s inputs are indeed unbalanced but it is simply because they use a single Phone jack in for a stereo signal…so you still need to use a TRS connector (which is balanced) but the AR is using it to feed both Left and Right sides.

So - you shouldn’t lose levels because it’s an unbalanced input.

And Unbalanced is still Line level

Right. In a roundabout way I was saying that while the AR’s input is unbalanced, it won’t change whether the signal itself is balanced or unbalanced and the amount of volume you’re getting from it.

Stickhit · 2015-05-23T09:43:56.000Z

TRS connectors are not per se balanced connectors they are simply the connectors you have to use if you want to have a balanced connection between two devices which support balanced connectivity (the audio signal is transmitted on both the hot and cold lines, but the voltage in the cold line is inverted).
When you use a TRS connector in the Rytms external input you are basically using it as a stereo jack only.

diamond808 · 2015-05-23T19:29:30.000Z

nice topic because i am looking into getting into external pedal fx with my gear and learning about impedance / line level so you guys can probably answer this question.

i’m looking at the impedance input level on the Zoom 100BT and it says the input impedance is 1 ohm…so does that mean that anything above 1 ohm is picked up by the device and that you wouldn’t need an amp to raise it? The Rytm output is definitly above that. what should i be looking for as far as these kinds of numbers are concerned between devices?

http://www.zoom.co.jp/products/ms-100bt/spec/

thanks

Stickhit · 2015-05-24T09:53:08.000Z

I was glad to see from the spec sheet that the input impedance of the zoom is 1 mega ohm (as opposed to 1 ohm).

I wouldn’t get too concerned about the figures, if you like the zoom it will work fine with the Rtym (and the input sensitivity is the figure to look at). Just make sure to increase the output volume of the Rtym slowly until you get a feel of how loud the combo can get. One thing to note is that the maximum output level of the zoom is lower than the maximum output level of the Rtym.

With regard to line level the common alternatives are devices which output at significantly lower levels such as microphones and the phono output from record players. When using these devices it may be necessary to have a pre amp if your device does not support mic input levels.

rgraphic · 2015-05-24T10:04:49.000Z

Finally tried using the A4 into the Rytm and the input level really is kinda annoying. Having them individually running to a mixer their outputs were comparable. In order to equalize them by daisy chaining, all of the Rytm tracks had to be at 60 volume wise. I think that is what elektron suggests in other threads but it seems counter productive if you then use the box alone…