No external MIDI = sadness [Functionality added in OS 1.50]

Elektron Gear Analog Rytm
#61

@discom
@jonah
both of you seem really angry!

I have the volca beats and it’s cute but it really doesn’t do much for me. sure it has some super basic sequencing abilities onboard but it has no external midi/cv controller abilities and really why should it? it costs 1/10th the price of the estimated rytm price. it’s a basic one trick pony. unfortunately, i don’t really love the sound of the volca beats. i actually really like the roland tr-606 sound and i was hoping the beats was going to sound like the early tr/dr’s but nah…

and you know what; the cheapo used external midi out route is just fine if that’s what you want to do. it’s no big deal. i mean the new arturia beatstep will do both cv and midi as a sequencer and a controller, at the same time, for like $99. so what???

I think the people who are realistic about why they want midi on this box are being down to earth and honest. we want to save space. we don’t want to have to use extra boxes to do simple things. And we really aren’t asking for full functionality, just some basic controls, really (though full functionality with an external midi plocked channel would be sweet). and we know that simple things like being able to compete with pad based midi controllers/mpc’s/etc would get more units sold which would mean Elektron will support it longer and give it more updates over time (theoretically).

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#62

Im betting very few users of the a4 actually use cv at all and most people with cv synths & modulars already have an external or racked cv to midi converter anyway. Id like to see the stats but Im imagining that less than 1 in 10 a4 owners ever use the cv channels. Should have saved the development time and given us a cheaper box or extra features/effects wed actually use, certainly Id have a bit reduction effect & compressor over cv out any day.

#63

I’m not mad, I just wanted the AR to be something it isn’t :disappointed: , and plus, it’s overpriced.

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#64

:disappointed: True, but this thread is supposed to help the rytm realize it’s potential.
:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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#65

yeh, sorry but 1600 for a 8 voice drum-machine + sequencer without external midi support is definitely overpriced…

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#66

you can record the key/pad presses on either into a midi sequencer. seriously the msq700 is awesome.

the rytm should send gates you can use to clock stuff and it’ll MIDI sync. tbh this could be super useful. i read about people complaining about MIDI jitter, slop, latency and timing issues all the time. dunno.

sometimes i send CV out into some $20 drum machines (most stuff that isn’t roland brand doesn’t have jacked up prices) that have tempo or trig in that send MIDI and send that into stuff. why? you can get funky swing this way that’s hard/boring to program with MIDI itself.

or you could MIDI sync one of the electribes that go for sub $100 and use them to send MIDI. i’m sure they’d sound great with compression and distortion.

as discom pointed out you could make volcas send MIDI (how?) and then use the CV/GATE clock in. sounds good to me? i dunno can you advance them one step at a time with a gate signal? if so, that sounds like it’d be fun as hell with the on the fly pattern resizing they have…(okay now i’m mad because i want to buy some! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: )

i agree with you about CV, but i feel the same way about MIDI. i’ve used an 808 (back when they were affordable) through a bunch of effects or played “toy” organs/home keyboards along with a dr220. no MIDI or CV. if MIDI sequencing was so important, why own any gear without a sequencer? :wink:

i gotta say though that something like mini the MS20 will be way more fun and rewarding with CV the MIDI implementation is useless. Or the micro brute ? can’t you only send MIDI notes? i don’t think CCs work. what are the modern options for CV sequencing available for less?

i’m not saying that you or anyone has to think the rytm is great, in fact there might be a lot of better options for a lot of people. but why not find what works instead of looking at what doesn’t?

@muddler i think it’s funny. i’m joking around. we need more/the old emocicons, add a wink after every other sentence. it’s so heavy doom and gloom. i get that MIDI might be cool or crucial to some people. i feel bad if people are actually sad. :kiss:

it could be buggy and crap. i’m skeptical the rytm will have a full octave range for the internal chromatic sounds and can you even use all the tracks chromatically? i have a bunch of drum machines that send 1 MIDI note per track and maybe 1 or 2 chromatic tracks.

i was trying to be positive “make it work” etc. i mean, life is too short to expect some company to make what you want. you have to do it yourself.

serious question: would people really be satisfied if rytm tracks sent 1 non-lockable note per track?

#67

this says it all really

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#68

Yeah I can only agree. See, I sequence a modular with my octatrack, working nicely.

But people go all berserk about the fact that midi out was left out on purpose…

Me think that it makes more sense to have some kind of external sequencer on the AR than on the A4 ! Unless you use it as a drum synth :wink:

#69

[/quote]
Here’s a link to the Volca mod:
http://blog.utopianlabs.com/2013/09/korg-volca-beats-midi-out/

I’m using an Alesis Micron to trigger my Volca Bass. The Micron is multi-timbral / 8-voice; the Volca can only record a single channel and one bar, although it has 3 oscillators, each can record a different pattern sequence (still monophonic though).

I can set the Volca to ch.1 and assign it to a range of keys on the Micron, meanwhile, the Micron’s synth parts can be set on some other key range on some other channels, or layered on top of the Volca (or used as a standalone arpeggiator).

Once I do the midi-out mod, theoretically, I can record multiple midi channels on Sonar and send back structured loops to the Micron–>Volca, using the Volca as a start/pause button and live step-sequencer/editor. The ‘slide’ feature of the Bass is crazy, I hope it works via midi out.

#70

True enough, but there is a lot of CV gear out there. I use CV to control a DSI Tempest, partly because that machine lacks free-running LFOs and a complete MIDI implementation so it’s easier to use the LFOs on the A4 and send them to the foot pedal input. Likewise I have an Ensoniq DP/4 that accepts CV.
Protip: any keyboard that has an expression pedal input - which is a lot of them - accepts CV, and the expression modulation is often of a much higher resolution than MIDI continuous controllers. In the same way that it’s better to send pitch bend data than CC if you only need to send a single modulation over MIDI (because PB is 14-bit while CC is 7 bit, meaning PB is the resolution is 128 times better), the expression pedal input is often digitized at a high bandwidth and thus provides better control. Even if it isn’t that fine-grained, expression pedal inputs are almost ubiquitous on keyboards, whereas you can’t say the same thing of consistent MIDI implementation.
Besides classic analogs and the new wave of analog synths such as the Minibrute, Minitaur, etc. there are also many guiat pdeals on the market with expression inputs, many of which are completely analog and which can not be controlled with the A4’s LFOs, envelopes, and parameter locks. This is more of a plus for Analog Keys owners, since they have access to individual outputs for each voice and could run different voices to different stompboxes, but there’s no reason that you can’t use the CV on an A4 to modulate a stompbox that’s processing the audio from something else entirely. I don’t have a comprehensive list of pedals with expression puts but here’s one from 2007 and as you can see there are many many available - I’m sure there are more up-to-date lists on other guitar forums.
When i first saw that the A4 had CV outputs I was also thinking it was a waste because I don’t own an analog modular synthesizer and can’t afford to get into that particular expen$ive gear vortex. But actually you gain access to a wide variety of affordable modulation possibilities.
As for development time, it’s quite low. The electronics of a CV output are much simpler than those for an audio output (because you don’t need to block low-frequency signals to prevent DC offset). It’s one of the simplest things you can add - a few resistors, transistors, and a diode to protect against someone plugging a hot cable into the CV output. It’s quite possible that if was one of the first things they did when they were getting to grips with analog signal processing because it’s electronics 101 stuff, before you get to more musical applications like oscillator topology of filter design.

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#71

Yes same as above

A4 cv into esq-1, tempest, ds-8

gives plenty of options to seq control what normally you can only do manually

(which I do aswell)

#72

This is NOT no cv= :disappointed:
Don’t steal our steam!!!
:imp:

#73

One of the “midi woes” brigade brought up loosing CV in a wild speculation of “hardly anyone uses the CV control”… I personally see the CV sequencer as its MAJOR strength above even standalone sequencers never mind other synths, and it directly influenced my decision after having output woes, I held onto A4 for its cv ability… Oh and fx for the modular. We just can’t have it all. And if its a buissnes desition well the products are still ace and worth having.
Besides the arguments flawed it does have midi = midi sync. Just doesn’t (at the moment AFAWK) sequence external gear midi OR cv.

#74

I’m just joking btw. I mean midi sync, for sure, is helpful. I can sequence most of my gear by itself and simply sync. Honestly the more I think about it, the less it matters. One thing I don’t get is why din sync? Seriously, isn’t this supposed to replace all those old school analog drum boxes???
So I’ve been watching the FM YouTube vid a bit lately. That vid makes me gas. The sounds are blazen. I also love Cenks smirk, what’s going on there?
Anyway, point is I really like this box no matter what.

#75

^ yeah sorry I didn’t mean to look like that was all aimed at you mate.

Can’t wait to get some bloody soundcloud action. Fortunately midi makes no sound so can’t be an issue there. :slight_smile:

#76

[quote="“Discom”"]

Here’s a link to the Volca mod:
http://blog.utopianlabs.com/2013/09/korg-volca-beats-midi-out/

I’m using an Alesis Micron to trigger my Volca Bass. The Micron is multi-timbral / 8-voice; the Volca can only record a single channel and one bar, although it has 3 oscillators, each can record a different pattern sequence (still monophonic though).

I can set the Volca to ch.1 and assign it to a range of keys on the Micron, meanwhile, the Micron’s synth parts can be set on some other key range on some other channels, or layered on top of the Volca (or used as a standalone arpeggiator).

Once I do the midi-out mod, theoretically, I can record multiple midi channels on Sonar and send back structured loops to the Micron–>Volca, using the Volca as a start/pause button and live step-sequencer/editor. The ‘slide’ feature of the Bass is crazy, I hope it works via midi out.[/quote]
haha yeah damn you. :slight_smile: i have to pick up the bass and keys at some point now. i was waiting to see if they did a combined or patchable version…

and the volca keys does chords, i think? it seems like it records them over MIDI, so i wonder they go out over MIDI?! also, seems like you can advance one step at a time by fooling with the active sense or whatever too.

i was wrong though. :disappointed: it’s actually good people are bringing this up now because i can imagine it’d be super crap if you bought a rytm thinking it did MIDI and then after you got it found out it didn’t. i think there are some fun workarounds, but i like weird stuff like that.

i’m actually kinda disappointed none of the aira stuff has any CV… :imp: :slight_smile:

#77

One of the “midi woes” brigade brought up loosing CV in a wild speculation of “hardly anyone uses the CV control”… I personally see the CV sequencer as its MAJOR strength above even standalone sequencers never mind other synths, and it directly influenced my decision after having output woes, I held onto A4 for its cv ability… Oh and fx for the modular. We just can’t have it all. And if its a buissnes desition well the products are still ace and worth having.
Besides the arguments flawed it does have midi = midi sync. Just doesn’t (at the moment AFAWK) sequence external gear midi OR cv.
[/quote]
I am with you on this.

#78

Not too concerned with external midi sequencing, aslong as the AR can receive and send midi clocks, notes, and start/stop like the A4 my bases are covered with the OT.

OT midi out goes into A4 midi in, but my minitaur and microbrute are synced via CV gate input from the A4. I key in sequences into the brute and then switch the brute sequencer to “play” to control the clock/step time from the A4. the other CV tracks go to pitch/volume/envelope based on what I want to do to the minitaur.

For midi master I use the OP-1 through a kenton usb host which connects to the midi in of the octatrack. OP-1 sends clocks out and start/stop. Also very nice to have a 4 bar pattern on the OP-1 tape and have it sync to the OT sequencer page position. For instance you stop the OP-1 tape playback half way through the third bar. When you hit play again, the OT will not start from the beginning of the sequence but from that exact position on the third page.

Also using the OT midi tracks, I can sequence, play, and record midi notes from the A4 using the OP-1 keyboard and sequencers

If anyone has any questions feel free to send me a message. I have never owned a CV anything until a month ago and have had great success with the A4 controlling outboard gear without midi. I also route the audio from my minitaur/microbrute back into the A4 because well p-locking filter settings is heaps of fun lol

For experimentation midi feels and sounds less rewarding to me. Otherwise, for program changes slaving clocks and allowing the devices to talk to each other the A4 can do all that which for my personal use is all that midi needs to do. I think it’s safe to assume the midi implementation on the AR will be identical, so yea hopefully this illuminates some work arounds.

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#79

I am not sure why anyone cares that much… As long as there is clock out the rest is not so important to me, why is is too you? this is ignorance not trolling so an explanation is better then ridicule…

#80

I’m going to chime in just to bring this topic back from the dead so it gets more exposure to Elektron, and reaffirms to them what their customers want.

Most others here already said it best. MIDI sequencing on this machine (and the rest of the Analog line, for that matter) would put Elektron in a class all their own, far and wide. Not that they aren’t, already, but an omission like this isn’t an oversight. It was a conscious one for reason(s) we don’t know. Maybe they’re not quite ready to push away from the Machinedrum and Octatrack line, or they’re uncertain how MIDI sequencing would affect sales on those product lines.

I own the Analog Keys. I’m green as grass, but I love it. They’re touting the Analog Keys as their “flagship product”. That’s a fantastic sentiment, but to completely omit MIDI sequencing from their flagship product is not in their best interest. Especially since it’s clear that their past products are more than capable of delivering that feature. In fact, it’s pretty crippling to the device. Like Anigbrowl said:

I agree that it should have some sort of MIDI sequencing facility and think that the potential loss in sales without it is much greater than the potential loss in sales from people who don’t buy OT’s. Also, the AR has inputs for treatment with filters and effects…well, what are people going to have coming in on the inputs? Very possibly an older or less cool-sounding keyboard that they’d like to spice up with analog filtering, and which they might well want to sequence from the AR!

I think they’re better business strategists than we all realize, and I think they listen to their customer base more than we realize. Bitch and moan as we will, they’re listening, and weighing all of their options, deciding which feature set to focus on for the next update to the Analog line, and prioritizing. It’s very clear with the recent shipping delays of the AK, Octatrack, and no release date for the AR that the Analog product line is in it’s infancy and it’s keeping them busy. Not only that, but they’re struggling to meet demand. Meaning that they have limited resources for a growing user base.

So far with the AK and A4 they’ve been under-promising and over-delivering. This is evident with the latest update which added freaking POLYPHONY to TWO units! A hardware capability that’s HUGE which they kept close to their chest until it was basically released. Albeit it took over a year, but it came. What synth manufacturer adds polyphony in a software update along with loads of other fixes and features? Only one I can think of…and I bet they’ve got more tricks up their sleeves.

This product line is still early in it’s lifespan, and, hell, one of the units isn’t even released yet. They have a history of releasing updates which add a tremendous amount of new functionality and features. I’m sure they have more unannounced updates to release, not to mention the Overbridge update which IS announced. They haven’t promised to deliver MIDI sequencing with that update, but it’s very possible they do. Who knows, they may even do it before Overbridge comes out.

To me, it looks like they’re making development easier on themselves by consolidating this product line to very similar parts and functionality. Meaning these three new units are different, but cut from the same cloth. To be able release one update for multiple units is very freeing for them. The OS update is one SysEx file for two machines, and possibly soon to be three. I bet this makes things a lot easier on them as a development team, and allows them to focus on important features, like MIDI sequencing.

They’re going to test our patience, but I’m willing to bet that we get MIDI sequencing in the Analog series at some point. I’d love to get more direction from them on this, but I’ll be shocked if they alienate so many fans and users just to keep sales up on other product lines. Those other lines, like the Octatrack and MD, also do enough different stuff to stand on their own even if there is overlapping MIDI sequencing functionality on the Analog series.

I’d like to reiterate that to Elektron, again…MIDI sequencing on the Analog series doesn’t suddenly make the OT and others obsolete or irrelevant. In fact, it would help strengthen the brand and user-base as a whole. They stand only to benefit from adding MIDI sequencing, and I don’t think they’re foolish enough to not realize that.

That’s my two cents.