Music for TV opportunity

TrabanT · 2014-08-21T04:54:32.000Z

what ? you have to pay for this? it is not that you receive 500, but PAY 500 ?

…to be continued!

Anigbrowl · 2014-08-21T06:20:00.000Z

Hmmm…Andrew, as you’ve posted it here it’s not so unreasonable, a 50/50 split in the writing royalties is a pragmatic approach and working in film myself (production/post sound rather than composition), I can appreciate the industrial nature of content production for library use.

But a $500 pay-to-play…jeez guy, you need to rethink that ‘offer.’ That means you’re aiming to take in up to $10,000 up front from people who are providing you with raw material for your compositional work. Plus you want sessions - presumably Pro Tools sessions? rather than just wave files such as a stereo recording out of my mixer. So that suggests you’re asking for multitrack recording of every beat, and as ASCAP #, which costs $50 - I suppose I should go ahead and get one anyway, but that’s a whole bunch of extra requirements that you left out of your original request.

Now I get that you’re running a business and you’re looking for a way to expand both your offering to clients and your talent network, and I recognize that hitting the sweet spot here has the potential to pay out nicely in terms of both cash and career advancement. I also recognize that besides the composition you’re taking on the administrative and legal legwork that goes into creating a pre-cleared music library - as I said, I work in a similar line of business and I realize there’s a lot of contractual overhead in media production.

All the same, it sounds very much as if you over-promised to your client and now you’re under a bit of pressure to deliver, and you’re trying to make that process pay for itself because simply evaluating and organizing all that incoming material is a great deal of work. You seem to have painted yourself into a corner somewhat, and opted for a common but rather ethically (and possibly legally) questionable music supervision industry practice to break even on the promises you’ve made - not least because you too have probably got a deal where you have to deliver a large volume of material without getting paid anything up front.

Although this is an awkward business problem that comes up all the time in a very competitive industry, I have to tell you as one pro to another that I don’t think this is a good way to go about it. You would be better off drawing up a rights contract that takes the first $50 of any cue royalties for administrative expenses and then splits the remainder or something along those lines. Paying $500 in submission 50% cut of potential future one-time royalties is about as attractive as handing over my credit card to enter the champagne room at a strip club.

Andrew_Nast · 2014-08-21T17:44:01.000Z

Hey guys, I respect your input, and opinions on the deal.

I’m not under any pressure besides the need to find revenue streams in the industry as it is. I haven’t promised any amount of cues, I know that they are willing to accept 500. I haven’t promised anything.

Thanks for pointing out the expenses, they are absolutely part of why there is a fee. There is also a fee because I will be arranging, engineering, mixing, mastering, and otherwise producing a useable cue. Remember, I’m asking for beats, not full cues.

“Why not just ask for a full cue?” you may ask. Reason being is the risk for lawsuit is too great. This is an internet solicitation; I don’t know you (or anyone) from Adam, and the possibility that the music has been sold before, or will be resold poses a risk for lawsuits later.

I don’t think $20 is unreasonable for my time to produce a cue and cut someone in 50% for making a beat. In any normal situation, an 8 bar groove would never demand 50% of writers share. I actually made a beat library for cues this year at 5% writers.

I also have the connections and placement history (and therefore knowledge on how to produce useable cues). This is a great opportunity for someone that does not have the connections or know how. (looks like that isn’t you, as you are presumably providing music and getting syncs on TV).

I am often paid for the other services on my site by artists that have no plan, no direction, and no hope for a return on their investment. This is a clear path to a return on investment, at a rate that is not gouging; I’m asking for $20 or less for an hour of my time and connections.

This offer is unique to what is available now, and reflects where the industry is as a whole. I wish albums were still sold, and I could make my way mixing records on SSLs for labels, but those gigs are 1 in a million now. This is the connection I have, and a skill I have developed. It’s set up in a way that is fair for my time, knowledge, skills, connections, and other fees (such as legal). It’s not for everyone… but it could be just the right foot in the door for someone without the connections or know how.

If you have placed on TV, you also know that $20 for 50% writers is a steal, providing a beat or not! $500 may get you a private lap dance in the champagne room, but where (particularly in the music industry) can you spend $500 and have a shot at making 2.5x you money back? And get credits? There are MANY shifty deals available for artists and producers, but this is not one. It’s pretty straight ahead, which is more then can be said for just about any music industry gamble.

**** updated for typos

Andrew_Nast · 2014-08-21T17:59:25.000Z

Thought I would add how this went last time I did this.

I didn’t do an open solicitation; I have a friend that does hip hop with a stack of beats he’s made through out the years. He gave me 250 beats; it was financed by a production company. We held on (and split) the writers share.

By todays deal offer, that would be a $10,000 investment.

It’s an exclusive library, owned by the production company. (Which is where the masters and publishing goes, for those that were inquiring). It’s NOT a re-title library; it’s an exclusive shot that puts the music directly on the editing bays.

We submitted the music in late 2010, and to date, we have each made $25k+ from our 50% writers shares. The cues continue to get used, and continue to place on new shows.

Why not finance the cues the same way this time around? As is well documented on the internet, the production company is like many others, and has just stopped paying up front for cues. There are plenty of people that will give the publishing and master away for a shot at the royalties. (me included, once this music is done, I literally hand it over for $1.00, for the entire batch of music).

Unfortunately, that model doesn’t work if you’re not sitting on capitol to supplement your income while you busily write a huge batch of cues.

I know this isn’t for everyone, but I hope it’s clear now how I may offer a deal like this with only the best intentions.

Andrew_Nast · 2014-08-21T18:32:39.000Z

One last thought, which in of itself merits discussion here;

The music is no longer the commodity in the music industry. Beat production, mixing, mastering, recording; all are over saturated in this market. A&R, managers, marketing pros; same. The customer is no longer the record collector. YOU are the customer. Artists no longer pedal music, they pedal brands; their own and others. As an artist or producer, YOU are the target market for all the products.

When napster took over, and introduced music for free to the masses, the masses lost control of the content. It used to be that people voted with their wallets what music would win in the market. Sure, theres always been candy pop, but there’s NO WAY in todays market a group like NWA, Tupac or even Rage Against the Machine would sell platinum records.

The ONLY agenda being pushed by contemporary main stream artists is homosexual rights. (this is NOT a post about those rights, just an observation). Macklemore, Lady Gaga, etc. Everything else is a party, a dream, or sex. Corporations don’t want to stir the pot, it’s bad for business. Why target homosexuals? From a corporation point of view, thats a dual income no expense household. (again, not trying to be rude, I don’t care who you are in love with).

The results of the napster “revolution” are clear. Your music is worth nothing. Your value is in bringing eyes to a brand, or influencing people to buy specific products. Period. Anyone 25 or younger probably hasn’t bought more then 10 records in their whole life.

I know there are indie champions, and I’m sure everyone here does their best to support them. But how many indies can support a family, or even themselves on the current model? Certainly not enough.

And even worse, the political and social commentary are gone from artists that have the stage in front of the most people. I mean, even Pearl Jam was making social commentary back in the day. What’s the message behind Bruno Mars?

I wish the “service” I was offering wasn’t pay to play, seriously. But the only people paying are the creators, and I don’t see it changing.

Housecliche · 2014-08-21T19:04:51.000Z

What I don’t get about this deal:

You and your buddy who does hip-hop made about 6k a year each from this setup.
So at then end of year one, your buddy who just made 6k for laying down some beats, didn’t think “hey this is a great gig” and start a little beat farm to supply you…

Let’s assume that he’s some kind of playa maybe, who doesn’t give a crap about 6k a year- why didn’t he give his cousin Huey an old mpc1000 and get him working?

Makes no sense - your buddy did good - you/he don’t have any friends or family that want in?

You really need the 500bucks a pop so bad? Yet you managed fine the first time…

#justsayindude

Andrew_Nast · 2014-08-21T21:12:24.000Z

He cleared out his library of works. He makes good money working with artists, so he sells full arrangements that way. Its exhausting to come up with that volume of music from scratch, and the production companies now do not advance.

I’ve never opened this up to just anybody. Before I had a nice supplemental business of artists working, and I would keep 100% of my writers on cues. Less artists are working, and I have extra expenses. If I find writers for all 500 thats 10k… and yes, I need 10k.

Alternatively, I’m available for mixing and mastering, as well as production… but I don’t provide any paths to income. Hey, hire me for that stuff! Mixing and production are my passions. I’ve worked on hit records.

My prices have never been cheaper for all services, and I’ve never had as nice a presentation. If you have some mix clients you could reference…

Otherwise, this is a viable way for me to make some scratch, and for an unknown to get the royalty wheel rolling. I don’t think it’s confusing. Can’t a guy brainstorm a new way to present services?

It’s a lot better then these A&R or Publishing “consultants” that take $100 or more just to listen to your music and tell you what they think.

I stand by what I’m offering. I don’t expect everyone to get it, or to do it. I’m only putting it out there, because if I do not, certainly no one will do it.

I’m not offended if you guys don’t like the deal, I don’t think you should be offended that I offered it. Here’s the alternatives;

Give your music for free to a re-title library. Library re-titles your work, keeps 100% of masters and publishing.

Advantage: you keep 100% of writers share. It’s free.
Disadvantage: No productions are using re-title libraries. They’re all flooded with the same music, and they A) want exclusive music and B) want to own the publishing

Find an exclusive library to contribute to. They keep 100% of publishing, and 100% of masters.

Advantage: you keep 100% of writers share. It’s free, and if you become in demand, they may advance you for certain jobs. (elite amongst their writers)
Disadvantage: Its a really tough club to join, you must already have a working library and heavy credits, or be gifted enough that you have developed a crazy library on your own. Also, production companies will choose music they own all publishing on before partnering with a library like this. These libraries are also HUGE; 20,000+ titles. You’d have to contribute thousands to have a workable % of the library.

Give cues to a exclusive library owned by a production company. They keep 100% of publishing and and masters.

Advantage: you keep 100% of writers share. Most likely pool of cues for productions to select from, because they own all the publishing.
Disadvantage: you have to be “in the club” to have access to these. They do not advance cash.

I’m offering #3. I’m offering half the writers share in exchange for an 8 bar groove, and $20. You can weigh it out, again, no offense if this isn’t worth it to you. You don’t have to be a math major to understand that this is an investment that can pay out handsomely.

One last note: as soon as I am in a position of not needing working capitol, this deal will go away. Why give away half my future royalties for a $20 per cue advance? It’s crazy and stupid. Having a wife and a couple kids will put you in shitty positions sometimes.

Also, lets keep it in perspective. I’m asking for an 8 bar beat. Anyone with any skill can do that in ten minutes or less. Also, it’s not like a beat like that is going to be super earth shatteringly great, or innovative. We’re talking bragging rights and an investment.

In fact, if anyone wants to pay me $40 per a cue, I’ll just write you in as half writer. It’s really not about the beats…

Housecliche · 2014-08-21T23:30:07.000Z

I don’t know anything about music libraries but here’s a thought experiment - what happens if you take all the convenient 4-8 bar midi patterns out of e.g. an old roland mc-505, or a yamaha RM1x , then use those patterns to fire say a bunch of samples in one of the many drum libraries available (say Battery) - stick a selection of ‘atmospheres’ on em, etc

I mean, what constitutes an original ‘beat’ here?

I can think of so many ways to semi automate this without an ounce of creativity…

Andrew_Nast · 2014-08-22T00:08:46.000Z

Housecliche - You miss the point.

I can program beats all day. I’m offering an opportunity to be 50% writer on TV music that is placed directly into editing bays.

Make yourself useful, and give me a beat to build from and $20 for my time.

Or, just give me $40 and take a 50% ride.

As long as the beats don’t use samples, I don’t really care how you make them. The beat is a matter of inspirational convenience, and really, a way to at least earn a little bit of the 50% split.

I’m not sure why you’re taking it so personally that I would offer this, or your dedication to trying to shoot holes in it. You’re over thinking it. It’s a mathematically sound investment, and offers an “in” to those that have none. Can you find me a service that works that offers a free “in?” Is there a standing opportunity for unproven producers to make money on TV with a direct connect like this?

I’m not asking for everybody’s best song they’ve ever done. I’m basically soliciting for you to hire me to produce a TV cue from your beat.

Don’t mistake my offer as some dire need for fantastic beats because programming beats is over my head. I’ve done theme songs, background cues and artist’s records from the ground up. by myself. I’m selling writer’s shares, and the cleanest way to do so legally is for you to contribute a beat, and for me to be compensated for my production and contacts.

Anyway, my personal recommendation is to execute everything with creativity… shit that has no thought in it is easily identified.

One contributor to this “deal” has been giving me loops that he programs using battery, and they sound great.

oldgearguy · 2014-08-22T00:13:25.000Z

One quick question since you obviously have very good business sense and track things carefully.

How many cues have you created, how many submitted, and how many were accepted? In summary, what’s been your success ratio to date?

The reason for asking is that basically we’re gambling $500 and when I gamble, I’d like to know the odds.

Since if we turn in cues and you work them over and submit them, we’re out the $500 whether they are used or not. So I’d like to know our chances of success.

thanks

Housecliche · 2014-08-22T00:16:37.000Z

Dude - chill down - I’m not taking it personally - I’m trying to understand the offer, and I think I’m getting there

There are a 1001 free and paid vsts that’ll spit out original beats all day long as you know.

What I know is that ‘beats’ are a very grey area in terms of protection, so farg knows how you make that work - a pattern without melody? I don’t know how that gets credited.

So what I think you are asking for here is money/partnership but you’ve called it an ‘opportunity’ - perfectly correct, but you can see how it can be misread. Call a spade a spade, change the title of the post perhaps…

You sound like you know your shit, I’ve just genuinely never heard anything like it (at this level of detail).

jamrod · 2014-08-22T00:26:08.000Z

Rather than take money up front, seems like it would make more sense to give the beat maker less of a share (25%?). Very strange to have your “co-writer” be the one paying you for your time. But if you find people willing, sure…

Andrew_Nast · 2014-08-22T00:34:08.000Z

""oldgearguy"":

One quick question since you obviously have very good business sense and track things carefully.

How many cues have you created, how many submitted, and how many were accepted? In summary, what’s been your success ratio to date?

The reason for asking is that basically we’re gambling $500 and when I gamble, I’d like to know the odds.

Since if we turn in cues and you work them over and submit them, we’re out the $500 whether they are used or not. So I’d like to know our chances of success.

thanks

Great question. To this particular library, I have furnished 350 cues, and 321 have been used. Payment is based on several factors; what channel the show is on, how much it is rerun, if it is distributed internationally, and how long the cue runs. On any given royalty report a cue could be good for a few dollars, or a few hundred. Payment is via your PRO (usually ascap or bmi) and takes 9 to 12 months from airing to pay out.

Andrew_Nast · 2014-08-22T00:39:25.000Z

""Housecliche"":

Dude - chill down - I’m not taking it personally - I’m trying to understand the offer, and I think I’m getting there

There are a 1001 free and paid vsts that’ll spit out original beats all day long as you know.

What I know is that ‘beats’ are a very grey area in terms of protection, so farg knows how you make that work - a pattern without melody? I don’t know how that gets credited.

So what I think you are asking for here is money/partnership but you’ve called it an ‘opportunity’ - perfectly correct, but you can see how it can be misread. Call a spade a spade, change the title of the post perhaps…

You sound like you know your shit, I’ve just genuinely never heard anything like it (at this level of detail).

Sorry to get hyped; sometimes text doesn’t translate intent, and I felt like I needed to defend my position.
We don’t get credits on the credit roll per say, only the library gets official TV screen credit. But, if you are shopping your services you can say you wrote on the show, and if someone really needs to see it, you get quarterly royalty reports that name the episode and show.
As far as beat: I’m looking for kick, snare and hats and a percussion track. Something simple, that has a nice turn around at the end of the loop. No melody; synths bass guitar etc. (main reason being to avoid potential law suits since I have no way to guarantee you didn’t sell the music before or after). In fact, as a further safe guard, I often sample replace your pattern and tweak it a bit. Safety first!

Andrew_Nast · 2014-08-22T00:46:23.000Z

""jamrod"":

Rather than take money up front, seems like it would make more sense to give the beat maker less of a share (25%?). Very strange to have your “co-writer” be the one paying you for your time. But if you find people willing, sure…

I realize the deal is unorthodox, and not for everyone. In the future, if I AM in dire need of beats and don’t have time to make them myself, I’ll do a money free exchange and you (the beat maker) can have 5% of writers. (same as I get if I furnish beats for the other writing teams this library uses).
I would post here first if that comes up.
It’s worth noting that there are writers I work with that I split 50/50 with and don’t charge… but I’ve been working with those guys for years. I trust them, and know exactly what I’m getting when I bring them on. Often times, they are bringing the opportunity, or, the opportunity is available because we are working together. They have credits as heavy as mine, or heavier.

pmags · 2014-08-22T01:28:19.000Z

I’m sorry but it’s got to be said…

This smells too much like “Make Money from Home!” spam. Long justifications not withstanding, anytime someone tells you that you’ve got to pay them first to make money you’re best move is to run the other way as fast as you can!

Andrew_Nast · 2014-08-22T02:43:17.000Z

""pmags"":

I’m sorry but it’s got to be said…

This smells too much like “Make Money from Home!” spam. Long justifications not withstanding, anytime someone tells you that you’ve got to pay them first to make money you’re best move is to run the other way as fast as you can!

Fair enough.
Do you feel the same paying someone to mix your record before you sell it?
Just curious.

Andrew_Nast · 2014-08-22T02:51:51.000Z

This has been a really great thread to better understand some of the concerns people are going to have with this. I think I need to pitch it as:

“TV Cue Production: Be included in royalties”

Because in essence, everyone is too caught up in the beat usage factor of this. The reality is, I want to be paid to produce TV music. I’m willing to give you half my royalties. The beat is almost an after thought, it just makes sense that you be a part of SOME of the writing.

To the last poster I ask this: what scenario in the music industry do you make money before putting money in? I really can’t think of one. I could list every facet and what the put in is, but what’s the point? You’ve already proven it buying a piece of gear in order to make music that you may someday be compensated for in some way.

I’m sorry if this came off as shady to some of you guys, I still stand by what I’m offering.

TrabanT · 2014-08-22T05:17:54.000Z

""pmags"":

I’m sorry but it’s got to be said…

This smells too much like “Make Money from Home!” spam. Long justifications not withstanding, anytime someone tells you that you’ve got to pay them first to make money you’re best move is to run the other way as fast as you can!

Anigbrowl · 2014-08-22T06:26:16.000Z

Hey Andrew, I really appreciate your taking the time to reply in depth, considering I gave you a pretty hard time in my first comment. As you say, this is the reality of business these days, but I’m not sure that this is the right business approach ofr you.

Let me pick up on a few random points in no particular order…

the production company is like many others, and has just stopped paying up front for cues

Good side of this is you get a better royalty deal, bad part is all the time and expense of producing it is your financial risk and they take on no financial risk until they use the media asset. You seem to to be adopting an 'if you can’t beat 'em, join ‘em’ strategy here, but I think you might be better off reinvesting some capital in you rbusiness and building a different contractual framework. a book called ‘dealmaking in the film and television industry’ is mostly geared towards producers but if you pick up a used copy on Amazon you’ll find some model contracts in there for media releases and so on. You could also seek to hook up with a would-be entertainment lawyer.

I’m not a lawyer but I did spend some time in law school. I totally understand that you need to immunize yourself against the risk that the music has been sold elsewhere previously, and you can’t afford to get sued for breach of contract and try to pass it on to someone else - corporations may work that way, but you don’t have the cash flow. But that’s the whole point of contracts; they give you a way to establish trust relationships with people you don’t know personally, while reducing your legal exposure. so I think your best model is to set up a minimal LLC, get a solid contract, and then take a well-defined agency fee off the top before divvying up any royalty income.

To the last poster I ask this: what scenario in the music industry do you make money before putting money in? I really can’t think of one.

The problem is that people are not clear on what you’re doing - half your pitch is for sales/placement, the other half is about selling your own music (as part of the cue), which seems like a huge conflict of interest to most people.

It seems to me that you have two different things going on - you’d like to broker music cue sales (but right now you don’t have the legal security in place and you don’t want to get burned, understandably). the other part is that you want an investor to put $40k into your business in return for 50% of profits.

This latter is actually quite doable, especially if you can produce royalty statements documenting a steady and increasing flow of income over the last few years, which it seems like you probably can. I seriously, seriously recommend structuring this into a more conventional small business framework first. You’re in LA, right? Go into the local Small Business Administration office (Los Angeles | U.S. Small Business Administration) with your royalty statements and tell them ‘I have X cashflow and I want to turn this into a regular business.’ getting your paperwork set up for everything will cost a couple of thousand bucks but they’ll be able to give you guidance on how to raise some actual capital for this.

Oh also…

The music is no longer the commodity in the music industry. Beat production, mixing, mastering, recording; all are over saturated in this market. A&R, managers, marketing pros; same. The customer is no longer the record collector. YOU are the customer. Artists no longer pedal music, they pedal brands; their own and others. As an artist or producer, YOU are the target market for all the products.

That is actually true, there’s more money in selling stuff to people who want to make music than there is in selling music to people who want to buy it (unless you get really lucky). But, to keep in the in the entertainment industry for any length of time you have to call the buyer’s bluff and show you’re willing to walk away from their bad deal. After all, if you don’t get paid by them, they’re not going to pass their savings or increased profits on to you later (as I learned from bitter experience).

The people who want to make music simply do not have as much money, as a demographic, as the people who own the rights to media content. you can charge for a clear service (eg your mixing/mastering fees on your website are more than reasonable), but charging them ofr the privilege of maybe making money back from you later (as opposed to maybe selling their well-mixed-by-you track to a label or the public) is a confused business model, The problem in this particular case is that you’re selling and buying at the same time, whereas selling 50% of your future royalty income in return for $40/cue (in batches of $1000) is a much clearer/simpler business proposition.