Moving from DAW's to Hardware - advice?

Hi People, a bit of background…

I’m almost 40, have a demanding full-time job, at which I stare at a computer screen all day. I’m just a hobbyist, not kidding myself that I will be the next world’s top paid DJ or anything. But I still love creating sounds. I know it will never really “get me anywhere”, but I can’t stop. I’m addicted.

On and off for about 14 years now, I’ve made IDM, Techno, Dub Techno, Ambient. Started off with Reason 1.0. Been using Ableton Live for years now.

It’s become hard to force myself to sit down and stare at a screen to make music after working all day on a computer. I’m guessing a lot of you know what I mean.

Over the past year I’ve gradually branched out into hardware (beyond the old standard midi keyboard). I love my Push, MS20 mini, Volcas, Mbase 11, and now… Analog Four.

I admit, it’s been a challenge getting to grips with the A4’s sequencer after becoming so proficient using Ableton Live + mouse. But, I also see the light at the end of the tunnel. I can see how people might eventually leave the DAW entirely, at least for initial song creation and sequencing. I am now considering getting an Octatrack and/or Analog Rytm in the future to shift even more duties from software to hardware.

For those of you who have gone from software to using mainly hardware for song creation - I have some questions.

  1. Do you feel there are enough benefits to justify the extra expense (especially for a non-pro)?
  2. Do you have any regrets or buyer’s remorse?
  3. Anything you miss about using mainly software?
  4. Do you still find yourself going back to software to just “get it done” and “knock it out” and that hardware is mainly for messing around and scratchpad duties?

Thanks!

Hi Bawx,

I’m 38, working all day in front of a screen like you, and i like making sounds.
I first started with Cubase + S2000, then SH101, MS2000, Virus…and now A4 and octatrack.

I don’t regret any of my machines. Now i play music without computer, and i’m happy with it. I think the money you can paid for a good machine will never be lost. If the machine is good, it will last forever. Or if you want to sell it, you will be able to do it without loosing such much money.

For the moment, i don’t go back to software. No need for the moment. I’m happy with my live tracks on the machines.

In fact, i play music on my A4 and Octa, the same way i was making music on Ableton live.

I really really really love the fact that if i want to play, i switch on the machines, and 10 seconds later, i’m playing.

And it’s also really much appreciated by the audience i think. People come to see you after the show to ask what are those weird black boxes… :slight_smile:

  1. Yes! Tremendous benefits getting away from ‘programming a musical spreadsheet’, which is visual, and instead focusing on playing/listening. This is such an obvious thing once you do it but until you do you don’t realize how significant just listening is (vs. staring at the grid).

  2. I have no regrets. I went from being a PH Reason user for 15 years to now just using Reaper for recording straight audio. Everything else is done with my Cirklon/Elektron gear and playing live.

  3. Software’s primary advantage is cost and portability. Something like PH Thor’s extreme flexibility is very hard to duplicate in hardware at a reasonable cost.

  4. I do everything in hardware and record audio snippets, then I go to software when arranging clips. The only downside of this is that it’s cumbersome to use outboard effects that way.

My main job is also in front of a computer for 8 - 10 hours a day. It happens to be testing audio plugins - so you would think that I’ve had enough of DAW world to last a lifetime, but I still find inspiration in the hosts and plugins I have.

But yes, I need to get away from the screen on a fairly regular basis, and so have quite a few hardware synths, effects and a sequencer for making music without needing the use the computer for anything other than sound I/O (straight through speakers …).

  1. Do you feel there are enough benefits to justify the extra expense (especially for a non-pro)?

If you can afford it, go for it.

  1. Do you have any regrets or buyer’s remorse?

Generally no, but a bad hardware purchase can be far more annoying than a bad plugin choice because of price. Of course it can be sold on for a small loss (depending on age), but there is always a little bit of regret.

  1. Anything you miss about using mainly software?

My personal choice is a hybrid set up so I have the best of both worlds. All of my recordings are done on a computer, but when not using plugins composition takes place in hardware (Cirklon is highly recommended!).

I try to minimise the amount of time recording, and arranging in the host, by getting everything as close to perfect as possible using the external gear.

  1. Do you still find yourself going back to software to just “get it done” and “knock it out” and that hardware is mainly for messing around and scratchpad duties?

See above … hybrid setup. Sometimes tracks I create with software are great, just as good as hardware. I don’t like to pick one over the other for sound reasons, as long as it sounds good it doesn’t matter what the source is.

The important thing for me is that when the computer starts doing my head in, I have the option of creating music via other means … and of course, the options of using the hardware is another / different source of inspiration that is not quite possible with software (e.g. CV modular type setup).

Peace,
Andy.

I just find hardware more fun…if software was more fun, I’d be a much richer man right now, but I don’t find it as fun! Although, I do like playing with iPad apps while travelling (or on the throne :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: , etc…); so sometimes software is also fun.

Hi! My answers:

  1. There are a few pieces of gear that I can’t justify, so I’ll sell them. My keepers are the Octatrack, OP-1, Nord Modular G2, Emu Command Station, and Bassbot TT-303. I don’t play music for a living, so the benefits for me are more emotional than financial. I play shows with the Octatrack. The G2 continues to deliver value as a virtual modular playground. The OP-1 is a fun and inspirational mobile workstation. The Emu is probably the most powerful hardware sequencer I have, and I prefer its sounds to that of my rompler workstation (which is on the to-sell list). The TT-303… well, I like the acid sound and it sounds better than software emulations. Actually, one benefit of hardware that we tend to overlook is that it lasts longer than laptop/desktop computers. I have not had a Windows machine (laptop or desktop) last longer than 3 years. My Macbook Pro is 6 years old and starting to fall apart.

  2. No buyer’s remorse, really. Most of the gear I’ll sell has been in my possession for several years. I associate buyer’s remorse with “short term”.

  3. Not a thing.

  4. I was using software primarily for multi-track recording. But I recently got a Zoom R8 hardware multi-tracker, and I’ve started recording to that. The only software DAWs I still use are on my iPad - the iPad is actually more of a scratchpad for me than most of my hardware. I’ve been using the OP-1 for scratchpad duties as well, but it’s steadily gained more and more capability for live performance. I could see myself doing an improvised live set using the OP-1’s new Sketch sequencer.

:slight_smile:
1. Do you feel there are enough benefits to justify the extra expense (especially for a non-pro)?

having a passion is priceless, everything else is money, …, money cant buy happiness only synths, and synths bring happiness…

2. Do you have any regrets or buyer’s remorse?

I really like to buy new gear 2nd hand, if I like it I will resell it for same price, or profit (maybe loss) and get the gear I want new

3. Anything you miss about using mainly software?

long compositions, drag around notes, kissing workflow goodbye that you mastered

4. Do you still find yourself going back to software to just “get it done” and “knock it out” and that hardware is mainly for messing around and scratchpad duties?

I hate when people give me this advice … but it is not black or white … you may return to your roots

here is my 2ct

elektron gear keeps my shoulder from becoming overused from holding a mouse… I am still on a desk chair, but could also sit on couch with synth in my lap or dance around infront of desk …

I think a lot of us came to using hardware for the exact same reason. Having your entire world located on one neat little computer seemed like a dream twenty years ago. But now that it’s a reality, people are hungry for authentic, real life experiences that don’t disappear when the screen goes black.

I’m 39, and use a computer for work also. I’ve been using software to make music for a very long time, but last year after spending a bunch of money on a keyboard controller, monitors, and the newest version of REASON, I found that I actually avoided making music because I would have to go sit at the computer to do it. NOT GOOD! So I started looking around for a cheap piece of hardware to play around with. I ended up finding the Elektron gear and was blown away (though it was far from cheap). Since last summer I’ve bought both the MD and the MNM, and I swear to you, I haven’t used my DAW once since I got my hardware. I’ve opened it and clicked around for a couple minutes, but the mouse clicking just killed it for me.

A huge part of why I’m not into using a DAW much anymore is the fact that you have to stare into a screen, and keyboard controllers are never integrated enough to where you can do away with the computer screen altogether.

Also, a DAW’s unlimited possibilities often become the bane of the creative process. Adding too many instruments, tricks, effects, samples… it’s endlessness makes it hard to set limits and keep moving forward. The limits of hardware force you to learn it and to use all of its potential in more creative ways.

As for buyers remorse or justifying the expense goes; I say if it makes you really happy (and I know it does) then you should invest in it. Invest in your own happiness. :heart:

  1. yes, but you need to be mindful of what you buy. i think, all too often, people like us tend to get into this thinking that they’ll make incredible music if they only have the latest and greatest in music tech.
    when you’re buying something, have a really really good reason for buying it…and when you get it, use it use it use it use it…even if you don’t know how to use it, just start using it.
  2. no
  3. um, i think the ease of backing up and saving because with hardware, you constantly should be backing stuff up.

other than, not really.

  1. when i first got the monomachine. i used it extensively with the computer. also, after recording, i’d would then mix, arrange, and process everything so my original recording, whether it was an entire song or just patterns, sounded quite different.

while i still really like the sound of those tracks, my life is a lot more hectic now (wife, kid, teaching career, etc), so i love the simplicity of using hardware. the last few tracks i’ve done, i just recorded via song mode and voila, i was pretty much done.

not only do i feel like it’s more straightforward, but it’s also a lot of fun. twiddling knobs, pressing buttons, and the grand feeling of being some kinda techno wizard, makes it so much of an event.

there are times where i wish i could do certain things more easily (i.e. sample editing), but the limitations often help me excel because i don’t get caught in all of the intricacies and distractions that a computer can present.

what do you use to record?
pretty much the only reason i use my DAW now is to record, and occasionally remove a couple of bars or something. for a long time, i used it to multitrack my gear, but for the last couple of tracks i just recorded stereo and found it so liberating. less is more.

Nice to read such stories which closely resemble my experience. I have re-found pleasure in making music when I let loose of the obsession of having to record stuff all the time. I didn’t have this recording obsession before I started using a DAW. I realized not so long ago that just playing around and getting as proficient as possible with a limited set of instruments, just gives me more satisfaction and pleasure. Limitations are sometimes (often?) liberating. So, the DAW and the numerous software synths are put asleep for the moment and I’m a happy hardware user (as I was before I started to use these DAW things).

And if you spend your savings (!) carefully, it shouldn’t break the bank either. There are still some nice deals to be made (I’m on the lookout for a nice Machinedrum :slight_smile: ). And even if it breaks the bank, then make it a deliberate choice which will most probably bring you fun and joy and sheer happiness.

Ultimately, the only thing that matters is finding the composing/arranging/recording/etc. paradigm that works for you. If it helps you create music that you really want to make, you should go with it.

Hardware vs. software is an old debate, but don’t buy into it; just find what works for you!

Personally, the Elektrons help me do what I want to do, but they did shape my sound and style in some way–but maybe for the better!

The ideal process for me is writing ideas, loops, etc. on the Elektrons, recording long passages of sound, then picking out the best parts or performances. From there, it’s on to arranging (in software–Reaper) and adding to the composition, again, with the Elektrons or whatever. So, yeah, the “hybrid” approach has worked very well for me.

The main thing is not to rule out any particular method or technique; just make music!

I work on a computer 9-5 as well and here are my quick thoughts:

  1. Do you feel there are enough benefits to justify the extra expense (especially for a non-pro)?

Yes, definitely. When I was younger, I did everything in the box mainly because I couldn’t afford hardware and the such. For me, it puts it into a much better context. Come home from work, flip on the a4/octa and friends, and make music. I’ve never felt lack of motivation to come back and work on something outside of when it was on a computer screen.

  1. Do you have any regrets or buyer’s remorse?

I don’t, but part of it comes down with accepting that it’s going to take a little time to get used to the workflow of whatever machine you’re using. The learning aspect is fun in of it’s own, but it is something to be aware of. Also, when you can, treat synths like any other instrument. Try them out, listen to lots of samples, and get an idea if it’s something that you like. I know pretty, easy advice, but it helps everything.

  1. Anything you miss about using mainly software?

Not particularly.

  1. Do you still find yourself going back to software to just “get it done” and “knock it out” and that hardware is mainly for messing around and scratchpad duties?

I just use the DAW to record and overdub through hardware effects, but that’s pretty much it.

Here’s a couple of my thoughts:

Recently I had my computers stolen, but thankfully they left my synths.

I have all 4 elektron boxes (MD and MnM are being sold though), a devilfish 303 and Novation bass station rack.

So basically I’ve been forced to use only hardware, and I’ve got to be honest it’s the one good thing that came out of it.

before I hardly used the Octatrack and didn’t really understand it. With a few days with it, I feel much more proficient, in fact there was a definite feeling of “turning a corner” which felt really good!

1: I’d say so, it’s opened my up to new ways of working, which has been really inspiring and made me think in a different way to composition, trying to get the most out of each box (one major upside is I don’t think I’d use a laptop for gigs any more)

2: In terms of remorse I don’t know if I’d buy the OT over the Analog rhym. I only use the OT for drums, but if you’re into IDM it can twist drum breaks and sounds into new things in a way only renoise can match in software and the AR can’t do that. Maybe that’s me trying to justify buying another drum machine! :stuck_out_tongue: basically one will do one thing really well whilst another can do the same + more but less immediate initially.

3: Obviously the ability to mix down! I used to work in very high end studios before selling out to become a medical student and I miss being able to manage sub-bass with kicks (which you can do to a certain extent but not precisely to my liking)

The other thing I’d do is layer sounds, so record everything in to Logic/Pro tools and then maybe add a digital pad/string section or little bits here and there. Also once it’s recorded it frees up tracks, so I’d mix down the drum sounds and re-import it into the OT so it’s only using the one

  1. Given the circumstances no, but I’m pretty sure I’d never to do that. I’ve always found DAW’s fiddly for music creation (except for renoise) Ableton especially. but little things like being able to change patterns on all elektron boxes with one change on the master.

Sorry for the length of this post but what I really want to say is change is always a good thing for musicians and with Overbridge coming it may be the perfect balance for you!

Thanks for all the thoughtful answers and advice! It is very much appreciated! Many things to think about, for sure.

A couple of ideas floating through my head at the moment:

I might really miss Command Z, heh. But, allowing yourself to work with no safety net is maybe a way to better know your gear and let happy accidents happen?

I really like the idea of just hearing and listening, as opposed to looking at “musical spreadsheets” - great way to put it! My eyes are tired at the end of the day, need to let them rest and let ears take over. Although, Volcas and MS20 are better for that than Elektron tiny screens. :slight_smile:

I am starting to think maybe I should decide on an approach per project/persona. Maybe for one project I work with all hardware, and the next, all software, and the next, a combination. Just setting artificial limitations might be of value.

I don’t think I could ever go 100% hardware, but I might get to 85% or thereabouts. I can’t seem to see myself parting with Diva or Push, a couple of great additions to my toolbox. But, I have to say I’m amazed at all the different sounds coming from just my Volcas this morning. Add to that the A4 and MS20 mini, and I have a loads of possibilities to play with. Good enough for my simple Dub Techno anyways. Put me down for an Analog Rytm also!

I think it’s true, once OverBridge is here, maybe I will be very glad I didn’t choose one way or the other (God I hope it works correctly). I think overall, my new approach to songwriting will probably be, start the song on hardware, and then get it to around 80% finished, move to Ableton Live to polish it, add some Diva parts if need be, some samples, and then mix & master. Good enough for my simple Dub Techno anyways.

Thanks for all the input and advice everyone. Truly great to learn from others in similar situations and life stages, setups, etc. Enjoy your weekends!

There is a CTRL-Z (of sorts!)

when copying and pasting tracks/patterns you can undo that, or even better save tracks/patterns. Press reload and it instantly goes back to the saved state. Whenever I’ve made something I like I do this and then experiment!

There’s great applications for this playing live, as you can do a load of P-locks/transpositions/changes on the fly, and if you want to go back/sounds bad it instantly recalls the unchanged pattern!

And as for changing approaches per record, that worked pretty well for Aphex Twin! :stuck_out_tongue:

what do you use to record?
pretty much the only reason i use my DAW now is to record, and occasionally remove a couple of bars or something. for a long time, i used it to multitrack my gear, but for the last couple of tracks i just recorded stereo and found it so liberating. less is more.[/quote]
I use REASON 7. I’ve always loved it. REASON has been doing ‘modular’ for years!
Actually I’m just recently starting to record at all. Still working out how to get the best signal path. I think I’m going to work on that today!

Hey Janos, a synth repair store here in Portland Oregon has an MD for sale. Funny, I took my JUNO-60 down there a week ago and saw the MD in the display case and thought “wow, that’s in great condition”. It definitely looks clean, and the guys that run the shop are super super cool. Check the link:
http://www.portlandcustomshop.com/about/for-sale/
ELEKTRON MACHINE DRUM SPS-UW – the UW includes the sampling features – this drum machine/sequencer/sampler is in mint shape, awesome live piece! Box, manuals, cables. Link Here $1100