Ooh, thanks for the resource!
Unquestionably they should get a fair wage and proper employee rights, I am not generally a fan of unions though, because they can really harm a company and the quality of the products, if you get over zealous union leaders, and then no one benefits. I hope that won’t be the case here, but the fact that they are taking this step indicates that there is a gulf between employees and the management, so that would suggest a union is necessary.
To my mind much better not to need to resort to unions, and have fair employers and a nice working environment for the employees.
Regardless I hope it all works out well for the employees.
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I am absolutely not trying to stir shit here and genuinely interested in this kind of outcome, but can you point to some examples of when a company in some kind of creative endeavor suffered due to unions? I’d be interested in reading up on that…
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I have zero problem with collective negotiations…as long as employees have the right to choose to be represented by someone else, or merely by themselves. There should be no pressure, coercion, name calling, etc. Those instances can be counted amongst other forms of unpleasant workplace experiences and acts of discrimination.
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I don’t have an example of a union in a creative field, but the (pro-union) podcast Waypoint has talked about a teacher’s union in Indiana failing its member by bargaining away money from pensions. See episode 485, timestamp 19:45. Unions are also not automatically free of racism or other prejudices
Which is all to say: unions are NOT a cure all, but without them, you are dependent on your company/organization being run by perfect philosopher-kings, forever
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Then look into work stoppages and increased production costs and see if you can figure out how that might impact product cost, availability and customer service. IBEW isn’t a “creative” union, it represents electrical workers. Moog’s offerings will increase in price if they are successful, or they’ll move production to another country to maintain current prices.
Also, if there is validity to the claims posed by the OP, then the department of labor should get involved as discriminatory hiring/firing is illegal.
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It’s an awkward time globally - so much merit for many reasons in trying to build hardware, including down to base components as close to home as possible.
But so costly it is impractical, let alone there are very few countries that make components and chips these days themselves.
At least MOOG managed to charge prices for its gear that could probably come close to covering these rising costs.
The industry is in danger of mass production only which would be a huge loss. That’s why it is so heartening to see small company projects like M8 Tracker and 1010 succeed. It’s tough out there.
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I mean absolutely there is a problem with labor where better and worse unions and decisions exist.
That is not a reason to throw away labor rights and not demand better.
We should all demand better.
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I just have a hard time believing that unions are automatically bad, especially considering how there’s significant evidence pointing to unions helping reduce income equality. I’d like more than just assumed conclusions that unions will kill a company, but some examples of how and why it went wrong.
I don’t know enough about union history, but this is an argument used again and again to stigmatize unions, and honestly at this point it’s beginning to feel almost propagandist. But it might be right…I don’t know enough.
There are a few companies in the synth world one could point to that (by all appearances) is doing right by its employees, not insignificantly Make Noise. Considering these, I have a hard time believing it’s a foregone conclusion that Moog would be ruined if it did right by its employees. Maybe unionization isn’t necessary, but maybe the employees have resorted to this due to being constantly rebuffed by management.
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Unions are generally unnecessary if the government is competent.
Europe is an example of that.
I fear the American Dream of 1 in 1,000,000 desperate souls get rich: but most live in poverty if they survive the system.
‘freedom’ is a code word for ‘government shouldn’t interfere in unrestricted business greed’
No wonder socialism is the bogeyman, when all it means is respect for the lives of others.
These factors might be a challenge.
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I feel like it the opposite actually … Thanks to unions europe is strong, because people can feed the Machine when they have decent living wages and good work benefits.
If it wasn’t for unions, 12 hour workdays would still be the norm.
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In Sweden though some unions are becoming too strong like the manufacturing union is SUPER strong and can really flex against any company in Sweden…
And that is good but the worker benefits have become so good (at least at my work) that the union almost has to fabricate problems (white collars cant have celebratory cake for well performed projects because blue collars aren’t getting any cake… true story)
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Unfortunately, the minimum wage in North Carolina is a whopping $7.25/hour, so $14.10 probably seems like a pretty generous starting rate there. I’m not disagreeing that people should be paid more for this type of work (or any other job really), just providing some context.
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I suppose the test is, how much would you pay to someone doing X job if you owned the business
Universal healthcare would probably help ease the economy of companies having to pay for health insurance to their employers as well…
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If employees were made of metal and never got sick, never needed holidays and worked 24/7 - imagine how cheap music gear would be
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True. But as often as robot replacements have been promised (or threatened), I don’t actually see that happening? Will cheerfully admit to being wrong, but the last few years have famously seen fast food places try to totally replace their workforce with touchscreens and robotics, with less than stellar results…
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Low skill workers get paid low wages!? ((Shocked Pikachu face) says the lowskilled worker who is realistic about this reality)
Is there any chance that the layoff affected people were the least competent at their jobs and the demo breakdown just happened to be what it was?
No company in this day and age is going to single out minorities for bad treatment. The social fallout would not be worth it. These changes are made to keep a company sustainable and profitable.
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Even Musk feels “humans are underrated” (as robots).
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By all means, show us examples where an increase in manufacturing input costs isn’t adjusted for by a) automation b) re-homed labor c) a decrease in quality or d) an increase in prices. These will be adjusted for. If labor increases, your margins are squeezed and you do one or a mix of the mentioned approaches I just listed. The company may be willing to soak up margin compression in the short term but long term they’ll need to solve the math problem for their shareholders.
You’re attaching judgement to this, not me. I am simply stating you cannot ignore input costs and labor is a substantial percentage of this. You may have no experience in this area, I however do.
I would add that with as small as Moog is, I don’t see automation on the table so I’d expect to see price increases or sub-contracted labor, etc. Also, either the management or the employees at Moog sound like terrible people. I wonder how widespread this is. Either way, it doesn’t sound like an environment in which I would want to work.