#58

Make atonal music: problem solved :rofl:

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#59

indus%24*

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#60

:joy::smiley::smiley:

how could I forgot this :slight_smile:

#61

:smile:

#63

Don’t buy a modular to learn. You are dealing with serious money so best to know a thing or two before entering. I see it time and time again with Euro people. They buy all the modules with flashy lights without a clue about what an individual module does, let alone an entire system.

#65

DISCLAIMER : this get´s a bit long and is the longest post i ever wrote, because this journey in the last years took a lot of heartblood from me, so I love to share my perspective of it. Sorry for the long post.

Thanks for your input too Bradley. Please take my statement with “trap” not too seriously. It was meant a bit over the top and with a smile. At the end we are discussing about music and instruments, so this should always be a fun discussion. I am more than happy for everybody who has a great time with the actual euphoric wave, that is going on in the Eurorack world (specific the Eurorack format).
What ever works for each one and is fun, than its the right tool for you.
I am now 4 years into the journey and build some systems and tried many many modules. I downsized and still have 6u 208hp System left. So I just want to share a bit about my journey and my obversation where this scene is heading at the moment.

Where to start ? Maybe first the good points :

-FUN :
man it´s so fun, especially in the beginning. The research, planning and than getting the modules and seeing how the systems expands and getting more useful is a so fun process. Also having the synthesis so physical and seeing and plugging the audio and modulation-flow is so rewarding. There is not much more addictive when unpacking a new module and installing into your rack. Its your baby and you see it grow.

-EDUCATIONAL
Having NOT a box (i mean a non-modular synthesizer) where all signal flow and even functions are burried under the hood or in menues is super refreshing. Studying each module and having it physical right before you and experimenting with it, helped me personally a lot getting better in synthesis.

-INNOVATION
There are some truly innovative designs to be found, that were missing many years in electronic-instruments-development. Crazy sequencers and modulation-sources, physical modelling and granular tape recorders. You find it.

-COMMUNITY
I´ve met a lot of amazing, fun and very helpful people, that even got friends. It was a super cool experience to share the joy of the journey, getting help and helping others and sharing the knowledge, BUT … see the shady side…

Now the shady side :

-NO NORMS/STANDARDS + many manufacturers
This is a painful one. There is no standard in Eurorack. You have hundreds of manufacturers now, but no standard for the CV-flow. This means, that you need a lot of tools (attenuaters ,offsets …) to let the modules acting with each other fine. Some take unipolar, some bi-polar voltages. So you need to read carefully the ranges and adjust with your cv-tools. This takes for me some fun out of the process and often you wonder why you don´t get anything useful out of your module? The answer is : you don´t hit the modulation sweetspots. I also experienced modules that didn´t get triggered, sequencers skipping steps and getting out of phase, loopers lossing sync and so on.
I also had a serious power problem that created a whine in the audio signal flow. Although I planned my modular carefully and was right in the power specifications. The whine didn´t go away. Even Schneidersladen tried to repair the board. Nothing helped, till I bought a new power-solution for 300,-€.
You just deal with a lot of different companies and philosophies in a pretty non-standardized universe. One more bad experience with this regard : I had a pretty popular sequencer that wasn´t syncing to my E-RM Multiclock, that is very important and syncs all my rig (all of my other modules with clock input where totally fine that way). It went bonkers when clocked by the multiclock. I read at Muffwiggler that people had similar problems. Opened even a ticket on their site. Waited two months and got no response and had to sell it. Sometimes companies also play the blaming-ping -pong-game.
I have to say I had the best experiences when modules acted within their brand. Than you felt some magic. Like the Verbos combo (CO, Multistage + ATC). That was just super nice how the oscillator sounded through the ATC and how organic the multistage modulated the CO. Or the intellijel modules. Like how nice the quadra envelope opens the uvca and the Rubicon, + Dixie + ufold combo created cristallclear TZFM or the Make Noise shared system… You clearly feel the intention of the design of the manufacturer. It feels more like an instrument. Of course all the fun of creating your own instrument falls flat with this approach and isn´t that the biggest reason you dive into it ?

-Addiction vs. musical output
This will very few admit, but I observe it at many guys and friends and even at myself. You get total addicted and you are constantly researching, planning (modulargrid) and hunting for new modules. It never ends. You put so much time into it, because it is just fun. You can even feel hunted, because you need THIS and THAT module THAN my system will be much better or I can perform how I always wanted, till the next one comes out. Or things don´t work out how you planned and you replan everything and the journey starts from the beginning. AND don´t forget the tools for that modules too ! Oh my rack is full ! I need a new one ! Not enough VCAs…
That all leads to less musical output and I see it everywhere. Me, friends and other wigglers/artists.

-Quality of finished compositional musical results
Although you get very fast something going with a bit of knowledge, I find very few modular compositions musical pleasing. Of course this point can get super philosophical, because everybody recieving music different (where music starts and ends), but this is my feeling about it. Even some of my favourite electronic artists that went modular, delivered for me far less superior endproducts.
You get very fast results using the right modules. Because of the innovation and demand and willingness to release a module for every need. There are modules that deliver for you rhythms (NE Zularic & Numeric Repetitioner, MI Grids & Marbles), modules that create cv modulations that you can loop (Turing machine, Marbles) and of course quantizers that fit any CV into musical scales. You have a lot of happy accidents and sometimes super cool musical loops and phrases, but I find it gets old after a while and I sometimes felt that it is not me that is creating that. And of course look at the millions of krell-patch-videos… Not my thing.
But when you really want to create and compose complete songs it starts to get hairy.
First : find the right sequencer. There are two kind of sequencers. The super fun ones (Metropolis, Multistage, Rene) and the powerful ones (Eloquencer, ER-101,…). The super fun ones get you going fast and are … super fun and hands on. But often limited. You want to break the limits very fast, because your results lack compositional complexity and it starts to bore you. Like only 8 Steps or only one track (1XCV +1x gate). The powerful sequencers put a lot of functionality into a tiny room-space because Eurorack is small. And suddendly your Analog four that you can get used for under the price of one eurorack sequencer looks both! Fun and powerful + provides the synthesis power of a Eurorack-system that would costs you more than 5000,-€. You start to think…
Played not long time ago a Dominion 1. Not only that this thing sounded absolutly superb. It was just refreshing to adjust modulation very fast with some knobs. getting ringmod going here, playing a melody with the keyboard, using the touch sliders to perform a modulation, don´t have to tune the oscillators (a lot of Eurorack Oscillators goes out of tune over time, have big sensitive knobs that you wiggle accidently or are used for FM without TZFM , so you are constantly tuning these f****s).
Also just concentrating on my Rytm and my Digitone and just ignoring the modular for a while resulted in much better & refined musical results. I just discovered for me again that practicing the art/playing and training on finished instruments with their boundaries yields in more satisfaction for me.
I felt I lost a lot of time in the last years with the modular approach.

-COSTS :
Because of the addictive nature and many small boutique companies that can´t mass produce. This starts to cost a lot of money pretty fast. DIY or not DIY. Used or not used. A decent system costs thousands of Euros. And you want get there asap. And it get´s worse. Because you invested so much already and it doesn´t work out how you planned it , you put more into it and more. There are jokes about guys not having to eat anything because they gave their last penny for the new hip module that saves their system. But I met people that this hobby affected their private life in a negative way. (couldn´t make vacation etc.). You just need to compare what parts are in an Analog 4 or Digitone. Let alone the LFO-section. 8 LFO plus each a vca and attenuater costs already more than the Analog four. Don´t let me start with sequencer… Its just unbelievable expensive.

And what I also observe extremely in the present. Modular/Eurorack is praised to be end of it all. If it´s not modular = its sucks. This yields in statements like the WMD performance mixer be much better than all Allen & Heath, Soundcraft & Mackie, -solutions. A tiny module with barely usable faders, no inserts, groups, routing or a EQ. Just ridiculous. Or a whole 808 without any modulation inputs as a module. Everything MUST be Eurorack, because the addiction must be satisfied.

And that´s just plain wrong. Modular shines in experimental, monophonic , rhythmic and heavy modulated sequences creation. Effects, Mixing, whole classic drummachines and polyphonic keyboard play are much cheaper and better realized with careful designed products from manufactures that do this for centuries. The tiny formfactor of Eurorack alone don´t fits for all purposes.

-COMMUNITY :
(continued from the “good points”)…, unfortunately and sadly in many places today and especially on the internet (looking strange to the “Overbridge”-thread) the tone is changing massively. People with no manners and no patience coming more and more into the scene, acting rude and shelfish. Maybe its just the nature when a community grows so big so fast. Who knows? I found it more fun two years ago.

wooo, that was long. Hope I don´t put somebody to sleep. :slight_smile: But it comes from the heart. It was a long journey and I am not completely sure it was worth it. Of course the learning experience was super useful. Musical output definitely declined. Don´t want to discourage people to try this way. But I have a feeling the Eurorack-scene got a bit out control at the moment and there is a lot of overhype. It has his strengths, but my advise is to really think strong were your musical path is leading you and what kind of musical end-result you want to achieve before climbing into that wormhole…

15 Likes
#66

Thx for your input. I’ve been on the verge of going modular for a long time - all my friends being into it - but I have refrained from doing it for the exact same reasons you underscore in your post. This reinforces me into thinking I’m taking the right road… and saves me a lot of time and money :wink:
(I’m the happy owner of a MnM+MD combo + Eventide Space & TimeFactor and couldn’t be more satisfied)

3 Likes
#67

Lot’s of good points.
I have experienced alot of similar things, however with smaller impact, cause I forced myself to keep my system small and not to spend more than 2k (+0coast). But small systems are difficult to design so that they make sense. You have to sacrifice a lot workflow convenience for getting small multi-function modules with tiny knobs and displays (I have three µ-modules up for sale btw, haha)
When I got the digitone, and got back to my A4 more and more, I realised how much my workflow and musical outpout improved again. It sure is a lot of fun, patching can be really meditative and happy accidents are nice moments of joy but

I feel that point a lot. I was so enthusiastic about quantizers and turing machine stuff, or self generating patches, but I forgot how much I prefer the melodies that I create myself. Right from my brain into the elekron sequencer or my DAW. All the melodies I love most in my tracks, I invented myself using a keyboard (even if it was the lovely A4 mini-keys).

And that is also so true and a major point I sell my stuff. It’s crazy expensive. There is no doubt about that.
I’m not willing to spend a fortune in a decent system.

But no judging. I hate the bleeps and bloops comments. There are many amazing musicians making amazing music on eurorack systems. As always, it’s about the user, not the tools. For me it’s just not worth the investement. But what do I know, I change my opinion on setups quite frequently :slight_smile:

5 Likes
#68

I agree with a lot of what you say Monopete. The addiction is real. The lack of standards bothers me though it’s never been a serious problem. It makes it incredibly confusing when first starting out though. Just my opinion, but there aren’t too many people playing strictly modular synth in a new or creative way and the ones that do would probably make excellent music regardless of the instrument used.

Unifono, I’m going through a similar love phase with A4 mk1! I knew it would be powerful but once I actually got my hands on it my euro hasn’t seen much action. At least until I start to tackle CV between the two :smile:

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#69

Well I do know that its sometimes hard to sell used modules. Don’t know if its because Eurorack isn’t so hot anymore, but it should be possible to build a nice system with used modules that wouldn’t break the bank.

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#70

In my experience eurorack has more of a collectors tint to it than a musicians tint. Used modules often are listed by sellers for like ten dollars cheaper or much higher than retail as certain modules have “collectors value”. It’s generally just better to buy new unless the module you want is out of production and can’t be obtained new. There is unfortunately no inexpensive way to get into modular.

I’m my opinion the easiest way to enter eurorack is to buy one of the “complete” systems offered. Pittsburgh modular, make noise, synthrorek are a few that make good ones and then if necessary one can swap out or add modules.

More on topic, for price, flexibility, and versatility, a monomachine does beat out a modular setup. Additionally, the monomachine can achieve modular like results

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#71

I have heard from a few sources that the biggest customers for Eurorack are Lawyers and Doctors. It’s a midlife crisis thing for a lot of people I think, I am constantly baffled by the number of large systems being bought and sold by people who have zero musical output. Perhaps it makes them feel powerful to sit in front of a load of controls and lights.

I was at Dutch Modular Fest a few weeks ago and a guy was playing a really great set with laser lissajous displays. This being a very visual set, I found it really interesting. What really disappointed me was that next to this performer, Colin Benders was setting up with his monsterous system. This is no fault of Colin’s but 90% of the crowd stopped watching the lasers and were just staring at the massive system being set up. Fetishists.

If you really want to get into modular, start with a Nord Modular, Reaktor, Max MSP or a fixed system like a Serge, 5U or Semi Modular. You have to work with what you have that way.

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#72

In response to some of the people here, I understand what needs to go into a modular synth (to a decent degree, not totally blind about it), more so looking at what would give me the greatest versatility to manipulate sound at the synthesis level. I did a bunch of research on everything and did end up getting a Nord modular (just waiting for it to arrive now). I felt the Monomachine was too similar to what I already had and the Nord appears to have so much potential (not that the Monomachine doesn’t). Some day I’ll get a Monomachine and Machinedrum because I fucking love Elektron products now. I’ve long toyed with the idea of diving into modular synthesizers (such as eurorack) but in talking to people it reaffirmed that yeah I’ll probably just always feel that I need one more thing to do whatever it is that I want to do. I’ve always found that I make the coolest stuff when I really limit myself and try to pump out some crazy shit. Some of my favorite music I made with a shitty tape deck, delay pedal, mixer, and a cheap Yamaha keyboard from the 80s. I used to mdss with chuck and qutecsound (spelling?) and I really should get back into using computers. I was toying with ableton live quite a bit the last year or two trying to get into it but i found it so very boring coming from using samplers 8 track and sequencers. Maybe if I pick up some cheap control surfaces. Some day I’ll find my workflow again. Used to be sampler based but I kinda grew out of that what with having such repetitive loops and have long been trying to work more towards long-form synthesis work that is transforming constantly.

I really appreciate everyone’s input here so very much. Everyone’s responses were well thought out, kind, and helpful. :smiley:

Got a suggestion from someone else to try reaktor, and max//msp has interested me for a while. I definitely take a lot of inspiration from Autechre but I wouldn’t say that I do or want to make music like theirs. My background is also heavily influenced by punk, industrial, and noise as well.

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#73

5 posts were split to a new topic: Flame wars on modulars

#76

Lol. It’s like never saying the “q” word in a hospital in case you jinx it. Never say that people are being nice in a thread.

Also, thanks for all your help Bradley. I’ve read a little bit about people saying they could use Max with the Nord modular so potentially in my future. Regardless, I loved the wide open possibilities with being able to program my own sounds from scratch and also used to do a fair bit of computer programming when I was younger.

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#78

Right right right, like simple macros, or a randomizer, or a simple function generators, yesssssss. Do you use max for live, or just regular ol’ max//msp? I’m not familiar with the environments, and a while ago when I looked at the cycling '74 website I was a bit confused about what I should be looking into (obviously personal preference, but).

#82

I just wanted to say that although I’m in my mid-life, I’m no doctor or lawyer :joy:

Heck, I even finish tracks with the rack sometimes:

Semi-modulars are great, don’t hesitate. System1m, 0coast, Neutron, mother32… plenty of choices. Also, if it happens that you don’t like noodles, it will be easier to sell semi-modulars than seperate modules.

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#83

Oh wow, that’s super cool! Thank you!

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#85

I’m not sure whether to strip this off into a new discussion… But this thread has me interested in those 90’s Nords again. Rack 1, 2, 2X, or a G1 modular. Just as I’m seeing them around a price point that is doable for me.

But having a Monomachine (and A4, Digitone, and Modor NF-1m), is there anything about the Nords I’m particularly missing? (Besides maybe their polyphony)

I sometimes think “oh an easy multi-timbral would be nice to use with Octatrack” but I effectively have that in my Elektron synths anyways.

I sometimes think a Nord Modular G1 rack or Micro Modular would be fun (our local synth shop owner was selling a micro modular recently and I’m starting to regret not getting it)… But I have ‘blank page syndrome’ as it is when I sit in front of Reaktor (even when using Blocks) and Max (even when using BEAP) and have always feared I’d have the same feeling trying to make patches on the Nord Modular. I hear some cool sounds being made on the G1 modulars, but I think I could make most of them on Monomachine and/or friends… right?

Is this just a fresh round of GAS I’m going through? I think I’ve got that range fairly well covered. Especially with the NF-1m there to be my general-purpose “proudly digital” VA-style-with-FM poly. But there were a lot of recommendations of the 90’s Nords in this thread, so I thought I’d see how they might stack up against my library.

#87

I wouldn’t exactly call my stuff glitchy but hopefully this should give you a good idea of some of the varied sounds you can get out of a MnM.

1 Like