'modern' sounding analog synths?

The Lounge Other Gear
#1

Been reading and listening to the minilogue. A lot of talk about if sounding ‘modern’. I can hear it too from the few well recorded samples/videos. Though I’m sure with some tweaking it could sound less so. But it has me thinking what ‘modern’ actually means. If it means thinner/harsher etc then I’m wondering if this is a result of soft synths being so accessible and slowly becoming such a wide spread ingredient in tons of records. And if this is the case then what’s the benefit/price justification of a ‘modern’ sounding analog (like the minilogue seems to be getting labelled as) compared to a good soft synth? When analog begins to mimic digital what’s the point? I’m sure someone can set me straight and I probably have it all wrong, but the question just popped in to my head and wondering what people’s thoughts on it are?

Edit - obviously analog filters fall outside of what im talking about…

#2

I always interpret “modern” as “stable,” honestly. There’s a profound difference between the sound of a contemporary VCO synth (say, a Minibrute) and a classic VCO analog (like a SEM), although that could always be a byproduct of the degradation of the analog components (i.e. a Minibrute will sound more unstable twenty years from now). I am speaking of the oscillators. “Thin” may be a way of describing this because the tuning, being more stable, drifts over less of the frequency. You might also call it precise or predictable.

That said, I’ve gotten over this ridiculous analog/digital dichotomy. There are some excellent softsynths (including some excellent VAs). For me, the advantage of hardware synths–analog or digital–always tends to come down to two things: workflow and “presence.” There is a presence, or richness, that I still hear in analog oscillators that software has not precisely replicated; rich harmonics, spectra, who knows. It could just be a matter of unexamined bias, I am willing to admit, but I still “feel” it there. Workflow is the other component, and that’s not necessarily a “knob per function” determination; I know my way around the AK through a process of muscle memory, etc. that is difficult to replicate on a soft synth, even when I’ve mapped it well to my controller.

That said, there are some great sounding soft synths that sound very “full.” There are some excellent analog synths that have novel approaches to synthesis (particularly in the modular world, where, surprise surprise, more manufacters are also finding the “analog vs. digital” divide sort of ridiculous).

The only two questions I ask anymore have little to do with some unfounded belief in certain integrities: does the workflow appeal to me? Do I like how it sounds? I like how the Minilogue sounds, from the demos I’ve heard (Tats’s own for Korg really gives you a good impression of some of the more specific features of the synth), and the workflow is familiar, so I will probably pick one up somewhere down the line. But I can’t answer those questions for you.

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#3

the comment about presence above is a good one - a violin in a room will always sound that bit more rich than a well recorded one, there’s a real presence and life/warmth in an analogue voice
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the minilogue looks and sounds very sweet - it has a slick refined tone - ironically that’s what puts me off, it’s the character of synths like the ms20 which appeals to me - so my take on the expression ‘modern’ relates to a synth having a wider palette of bright oscillator timbres as opposed to subtractive synthesis on ‘regular’ saw/tri/sqr and nothing too obviously like a moog ladder filter
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in that regard the A4 is maybe modern, plus unlike some it’s not immediately obvious what it’s direct lineage points back to - the microbrute maybe should be modern, but somehow that strikes me as being a synth which looks back - maybe the filter plays a big role in determining this perception - i think having onboard fx may influence the perception too
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the korg looks a total winner, but it’s a little basic in the synth architecture to excite me - it has amazing fun appeal with all the modern ways to play it, and like most synths you can’t judge it by the presets - if that were the case i’d never have been taken by the A4 - the minilogue looks incredible fun and there’s simply no beating one knob per function designs - that korg designer is clearly of the nintendo generation
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i don’t see any relevance to your point about analogue mimicking digital though - it’s entirely possible under certain ranges that a digital oscillator and filter will sound fine - there’s no hiding from the fact that a synth with true vcos and discrete components has a certain something about the sound, dcos and surface mount synths come close and a good digital VA may get towards that - the difference for me is that the digital side will always reveal itself at some extremes or if the filter is pushed
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so it’s not myth or marketing, analogue voices have the potential to be just that bit more lively and special- re the ‘modern’ angle ; well, most synths have some element of throwback to them, so far that korg hasn’t played on any of its company’s heritage - i think if it wasn’t for the wave shaping and maybe the character of the filter then it might not be referred to as being modern (except for all the nice bells and whistles it has)
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maybe modern subconsciously means sterile or polished, but i guess it means less like something from the past and maybe ‘produced/sugary’ as opposed to ‘raw/dirty’

#4

Interesting insights. Sounds like you guys have a lot of experience so it’s good to get your take on it. I don’t have much knowledge or hardware experience (only ever owned/played ms20 mini, volca keys, mininova, blofeld, and a ton of little casios :wink: but instinctively agree with everything said. Just slightly confused to hear ‘modern’ being thrown around so much as a way fo describing the minilogue sound. I don’t really listen to chart music or underground electronica, more in to noise/psych/samply weirdness. So I have no preference or take on what the synth sound of ‘now’ is. But like you guys say, if something works then it’s good! Pretty sure I could get some use out of the minilogue here but trying not to impulse buy and waiting to see what else namm brings…

#5

Good call on the “waiting to see what else NAMM brings.” I’m in the same boat; my first impulse was: GAS. But I want to see what else is on the table, and I really probably am set for analogs right now. The Minilogue looks fun and some of the voice modes are interesting, but I agree with avantronica that its synthesis is a little dull. Wave-shaping is nice; routing the envelope to the LFO has some interesting applications (if only the LFO could be routed to more interesting places…). I downloaded the manual, and it actually has a lot of great features, but I’m just not sure they’re features I need. That said, people will be able to make great sounds out of it because 1) it has a pretty solid core, and 2) there’s actually a lot you can do with it, especially once you dig into the sequencer (I haven’t seen anyone do this, but I’m assuming, like the Volca Keys, you can record motion sequencing without having to record notes, which would allow for all sorts of funkiness). One plus that isn’t getting enough discussion is that the MIDI is 14 bit (or whatever, it goes up to 1024 values) which means no stepping, etc… Really nice to see that resolution in a “budget” synth.

The only real advantage Minilogue has is that we know all about it in advance of NAMM and you can buy it NOW. That will have even more appeal once you see something truly spectacular demo’d at NAMM that will be available this summer… what, we’ve pushed that back, now it’s fall… definitely by Christmas… look it’s demoing at NAMM 2017! Korg has it now, and even though the first batches will sell fast, they’ve no doubt produced a bunch of these in advance because they are a huge company and can afford to bet on this being a big seller. (It will be.) Personally, I want to know more about the Roland sampler and the Waldorf Kassetenspieler (assuming it is an actual product?) before I make any decisions. Please, if the Waldorf is real, let their be a better sample-management program than Spectre!

#6

I think the real modern synth sound is in the Eurorack modules that have been coming out over the past couple of years. Noise Engineering, Mutable Instruments, Harvestman, etc. They’re all digital/analog voltage controlled synths that have a modern and futuristic edge. The sounds can be quite harsh and abrasive, but they feel alive.

#7

Yeah I hated the Spectre sample management when I had a Blofield a years back. If the Waldorf ‘tape’ player is legit then hopefully they improved the import software :wink: think that could be a really useful unit if it’s the box I’m guessing it will be. The roland sampler could be great too. For some reason I still love my 404 and 555. Just so quick and intuitive and decent inboard fx. If they could marry that with something like OT depth I’d be very very happy… Listened to some more minilogue today. Drummed home what people were saying about it being modern sounding. Started me thinking it might actually be cool to have that shade in my palette. But for now the lack of sequence transpose via keyboard is enough to make me hold off. See what happens over the next month or so…

#8

Yeah, Always seeing crazy modular boxes that I know I’d love. Just trying to avoid jumping in cos of money/space/portability/patching during shows… Always tempted to start building tho…

#9

Just my two cent on hardware synths … to an interesting question …

First Cent: modern analoge “east coast” synths

Stability has already been addressed, but for me this stability should be under control to be week or strong as needed. Reliability should be also addressed, as view as possible repair or recalibration needed, done by the manufacturer or a repair guru.

Modern VCO sections shoud at least try to generate more waveforms than the ordinary triangle, saw, and pulse. There are VCOs that allow PWM for all waveforms or give different “colors”, some allow to morph between the classical waves, but mostly appreciated are VCOs that provide unusual waveforms too, like the A4/AK with Transistor Pulse. New waveforms are essential for new sounds.

Modern VCF sections sould have more than one filter and the option of having standard filters AND more … like Steiner-Parker (Minibrutes) or a multimode filter as we see in the Modal 008. Filters are IMO the soul of the subtractive synthesis and can make a synth extraordinary.

Second Cent: modern digital “east coast” synths

Very important is that they should be free of all the digital issues like aliasing and beeing almost a calculator. Good news … this seems to be standard already, particularily, if they simulate circuit behaviour in real time.

Most important for me is that they should exploit “new digital” territory rather than beeing a kind of VA only. The Virus is an example, giving some new sound engines based on formant and granular synthesis. But this should not be the end of the “thinking out of the box”. I would love to see more ideas.

Generally … modulation sources and targets as many and flexible as possible and maybe new ideas here too (like in “west coast” modules), to get more “live” into the sounds … :slight_smile:

#10

Is your question based on thinking only, or do you have experience in comparing synths ? ( digital vs analog vs plugins ) ?
If u understand the nature of digital and analog you’'ll understand why digital stuff wil always stay different from analog, no matter how far technology evolves in the future.
Wich kind of synthess you prefer is a matter of taste.
I use an AK + A4 + Dominion 1, and they defenitly have a different caracter, but they are all analog. the Dom 1 has VCO’s and the LFO’s are analog. it sounds more " Old -Scool " , less stable, more agressive in filtering, but it can sound very smooth.
The difference with didgital synth’s is not just the sound but it’s when I start to tweak and build the difference becomes very clear.
In my vision an analog synth fits in the category of acoustic instruments - because the sound is being made by a natural element = Electricity. > Like all other acoustic instruments who produce sound by other natural elements like metal, wood, Wind(air), even stone and bone etc…
I fell in love with synthesis by listening to old great masters like Klaus Shulze, Tomita, Vangelis, etc…some artists like Kitaro swapped their analog’s by digital synth’s in time and it took me a time to realise that that was the reason I didn’t like his music anymore. Something was lost= the analog sound.
Digital synthesis has no relation at all with analog synthesis. It can only mimic it to a certain level, never become it.
The word " Modern " is totally relative.- I’ve heard " classical " music, more than 200 years old , that sounds more modern to me than electronic contemporary stuff.!!!
I’m very happy tho with some digital stuff out -there - We wouldn’t have a lot of FX at our disposal if those had to be all analog and for some kinds of synthesis DIGITAL is perfect ( like FM etc… and not to forget lot’s of FX like reverbs etc… )

#11

One of the best statements to the neverending analog vs digital debate i have ever read

#12

Is your question based on thinking only, or do you have experience in comparing synths ? ( digital vs analog vs plugins ) ?
If u understand the nature of digital and analog you’'ll understand why digital stuff wil always stay different from analog, no matter how far technology evolves in the future.
Wich kind of synthess you prefer is a matter of taste.
I use an AK + A4 + Dominion 1, and they defenitly have a different caracter, but they are all analog. the Dom 1 has VCO’s and the LFO’s are analog. it sounds more " Old -Scool " , less stable, more agressive in filtering, but it can sound very smooth.
The difference with didgital synth’s is not just the sound but it’s when I start to tweak and build the difference becomes very clear.
In my vision an analog synth fits in the category of acoustic instruments - because the sound is being made by a natural element = Electricity. > Like all other acoustic instruments who produce sound by other natural elements like metal, wood, Wind(air), even stone and bone etc…
I fell in love with synthesis by listening to old great masters like Klaus Shulze, Tomita, Vangelis, etc…some artists like Kitaro swapped their analog’s by digital synth’s in time and it took me a time to realise that that was the reason I didn’t like his music anymore. Something was lost= the analog sound.
Digital synthesis has no relation at all with analog synthesis. It can only mimic it to a certain level, never become it.
The word " Modern " is totally relative.- I’ve heard " classical " music, more than 200 years old , that sounds more modern to me than electronic contemporary stuff.!!!
I’m very happy tho with some digital stuff out -there - We wouldn’t have a lot of FX at our disposal if those had to be all analog and for some kinds of synthesis DIGITAL is perfect ( like FM etc… and not to forget lot’s of FX like reverbs etc… )
[/quote]
I don’t have a ton of experience with legit hardware. Only the last 6 years or so I became interested in samplers/synths. Before that I was pretty limited to guitar/keys. Though always in to fx etc. I have ms20 mini, volca keys. Mininova, some little casios, a ton of softsynths…sold a blofeld. They’re the only analog/digital I’ve used. Almost grabbed Dominon 1 but had to bail to pay for Xmas :frowning: Hoping to grab one soon tho… But yeah, I think I was kinda getting tangled in my thinking when I originally posted. Just seemed to me from the descriptions and a few videos that the minilogue sounded pretty thin/bright/harsh/crystal. Which has always been my experience of digital over analog, and the way I perceived it from reading etc. So when people were saying, oh it sounds modern, it just got me thinking that maybe without us realising it the sound of softsynth had become the thing to aim for in terms of sounding ‘modern’, due to young producers etc mostly growing up in the world of cracked softsynth and a lot of chart stuff having them doing hooks and bass etc. But I think it was probably a flawed analysis. Just coincidence/cost cutting/modern presets on the minilogue I guess :wink: though when I check DSI videos I often think they’re a little sterile etc too, but I haven’t watched/heard a lot and I imagine it’s probably all down to the person programming on those higher end synths…I probably watched the wrong YouTube videos :wink:

#13

P. S. I’m not knocking digital. I’m a fan of diva, serum, omnisphere etc. And loads of stuff on ios. Both analog and digital sounds are useful.

#14

One comment from several years ago that made me LOL was:

“Moog Voyager sounds like a softsynth”

Zing!

That synth was often criticized for sounding too polite, too modern, whatever, but when you crank up some params on that thing, there’s no question about the sound being analog.

#15

Tbh nowadays when you buy an analog synth you’re doing it for the interface. Plugins like monark and diva are already there soundwise.

Also I think the comment about the stock patches being modern is spot on. The A4 stock patches also tend towards modern/aggressive/dance, but it’s also possible to dial in the classic smeared wavy old school sound, and I expect the same will be true of the minilogue.

#16

Same here, Anfim. If you have a Minilogue sound that is too bright, just turn down the filter cutoff knob. : :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

#17

Agreed on all points.

Most modern synths are capable of much more than the consensus of their web forum / marketing reputations. I was very impressed with Blofeld’s V/A side using the Don Solaris Analog Voltage pack. The design of the multi-mode and interface latency (knob/screen) killed it for me, though.

Most new synths have the goods under the hood, but interface is everything.

I’ve heard the opposite about A4. That it’s too dull, and I just think, okay change the filter configuration!

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#19

Sometimes ‘modern’ equates to the fact there’s a lot more software involved, not all of which handles like synths of yore. Software LFOs don’t necessarily have the range or resolution of their analogue counterparts and some coders may not necessarily know how hardware envelopes work. For example, many software envelopes have a (boring imho) linear decay and some even do the entirely non-analogue ‘return to zero’ thing. Korg’s Minilogue and Monologues are guilty of this but not the xd though (its envelopes aren’t great though, for different reasons).

Filter design sometimes seems rushed or untested too. I remember that the DSI Pro2 suffered for quite a while with its second filter never closing properly. Despite an initial claim this was a characteristic of the design, it was later rectified by a firmware update.

#20

Not sure how - or why - this thread got bumped, but nowadays one of my favorite analog synths is the SOMA Lyra 8 and it doesn’t even have filters.

Nice to see a couple of past participants still here and contributing to the forum.

#21

Hah, indeed. Personally I still haven’t found a synth I like better than the MS20 mini despite having had a few fancy ones recently, but it’s sorely lacking a couple of things I like so I’ll keep trying stuff. Bass Station 2 is excellent, shame about the slighty cumbersome interface. Next up is possibly the Microfreak.

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