Model Cycles Dominant 7 Chords

Two-part question: In terms of chord construction/harmony can anyone explain the difference between the M7 and Maj7 chord options on the Model Cycles & is there an option to play dominant 7 chords? I’m not sure if I’m missing something simple but I can’t seem to see/hear which, if any, chord type in the groovebox represents a D7 chord.

Is there no audible difference between these? I don’t have a M:C but I would guess M7 is what you want, a major chord with a flat 7th, and Maj7 has a natural (sorry this may not be the right term) 7th. And m7 of course is the minor 7th chord.

Maj7 and m7 are notations I have seen before, M7 I don’t think so but they probably thought just “7” would be a daft name for a chord.

(And welcome to the forum of course!)

Welcome to the forum!

Page 52 of the manual lists the chord types. Scanning the list they look familiar as @JSZ has said. Might be worth googling those on the list for a better description

The dominant 7 chord is not really a separate chord type, and you can use a M7 chord for it in the Cycles. The “dominant” part has to do with the chords function within the progression/harmony. Many basic music theory books or websites should cover this if you want to read up on it, it’s a really common term in western music theory.

I just looked at the manual. I would guess M7 is the dominant. M7 in this context meaning major triad (big M) with a minor or b7. I’m guessing this because there is one that say m7 and one that says maj7 so M7 must be dominant.

2 Likes

Thanks all. A dominant 7 chord is different to a maj 7 and/or minor 7, of course, but I’ve never seen it notated as an M7 chord which is what has confused me. I find it hard to believe that they would include the sus4, sus2, flat6, chords, etc and not have a major flat 7 (dominant) but just wondered if anyone knew for sure. I’ve only had my box a week or so and will keep digging. Cheers.

1 Like

It’s usually just called a “7” chord, but the term “dominant” is what’s confusing you, it’s answered above by @Valdor. It’s a position, not a chord type: in C the “dominant 7th” is GBDF

This is indeed a bit confusing as CM7 is normally considered an alternative spelling for Cmaj7.

In the case of the M:C this is a C7 (or “dominant” 7), it’s not that they left out this very common chord but included sus4#5b9 and M6add4no5 :slightly_smiling_face:

1 Like

Thanks again for your replies, very helpful! :slightly_smiling_face:

I might be wrong, but I think you and @Valdor may be confusing the dominant scale degree and the dominant 7th chord. The dominant is indeed a scale degree (G in the key of C major, the dominant function), but a dominant 7th is an actual chord, often abbreviated with a 7 after the root letter, which is a major triad with the addition of a minor 7th tone (G7 = GBDF). Given the context of the chord machine in the Model:Cycles, I also expected to find a dominant 7th labeled as a 7 chord, or maybe “dom 7”.

I have also seen “M7” as an abbreviation for a major 7th chord (and “m7” as a minor 7th chord), including on the Wikipedia article on the Major seventh chord (I’m a new user so I can’t add this link). So I was confused to see both “M7” and “Maj7” in the list of chords. I also see a mMaj7 which I assume is the minor major 7th chord, but no major minor 7th chord, which is yet another name for a dominant 7th chord. My best guess from listening is that the M7 chord is the dominant 7th. But it would be great to have these chord abbreviations spelled out, perhaps in a future revision of the manual.

2 Likes

No, you are still confused.

The chord you are talking about is just a major triad with a minor 7th. That’s a “7” chord. M7 and Maj7 both refer to major triad with a major 7th. Min7 is minor triad with minor 7.

When and only when the Dominant scale degree has a 7 chord, that’s a Dominant 7th. It’s the same chord, but it’s labeled differently because it behaves in a special manner on the degree only. If you change the 7th from a minor to a major 7th, it’s no longer a Dominant 7th, it’s just a Maj7 chord on the fifth degree.

1 Like

I agree with everything you posted, except for the fact that “dominant seventh chord” is indeed another name for a major triad with an added minor 7 tone, commonly abbreviated with the root letter and a 7, as in the wikipedia article for “dominant seventh chord” I linked above. This is regardless of its position within a key. The article states “Dominant seventh chords are often built on the fifth scale degree (or dominant) of a key.” Basing a dominant 7th chord on a tone other than the fifth of a key is possible, and quite common in jazz chord substitutions in progressions like the I-VI-II-V. Typically if you substitute a dominant 7th in place of a minor 7th for the II chord in a I-VI-II-V in C (using D7 in place of D minor 7 by using raising the third of the chord), you would refer to that chord as a D7 or D dominant 7th, even though its root is the II chord in C. You could argue that this substitution represents a temporary key change within the progression so the D7 is the V chord of a temporary G key center I suppose.

But typically “G7” with no other context is usually referring to GBDF (which is a G dominant 7th chord, or G7). This terminology gets confusing because “seventh chords” are a family of chords, which include major 7th chords, minor 7th chords, dominant 7th chords, minor 7 flat 5 chords (half-diminished), etc. I tried to include the link to wikipedia for “seventh chords” here, which explains all this, but I’m apparently not allowed.

I agree that Maj7 and M7 are typically both used to refer to a major 7th chord, and that is the root of my confusion on the Model:Cycles - it has chords labeled with both of these, but the two don’t sound the same. And of course, why would we want two configurations with the same chord? That’s what makes me think they intended for the M7 to be a dominant 7th chord. But I would love to have some clarification from Elektron on that.

1 Like

And just for more fun: if you play a 7 chord on the tonic, it puts you right at the gate of the mystical Mixolydian Mode.

Why mystical? Your interest in this 7 chord is well founded. That chord encapsulates the most easily heard tones of the natural harmonic series. Dupe octaves and fifths are removed so it’s a kind of “harmonic essence” in one simple chord of the patterns that everything from atoms to galaxies vibrate within.

And there’s more too: the 7 chord contains the “sweetest” interval, the major third, and also the prime dissonance, the tritone or augmented 4th. This is formed between the 3rd and the 7th, so E and B flat in a C7 chord. These two sounds are at perfect odds with each other, and yet we love the sound of this chord. Why? Because it’s a perfect simple mirror of nature’s order.

Smoke some flower and think about that for a while :smiley:

3 Likes

Nice! I dig the Mixolydian, but I also keep coming back to Dorian and Lydian. The one I never seem to reach for is Locrian. The tritone always makes me think of Black Sabbath, which is great.

1 Like

I mostly use the same modes too. Lydian is a mindfuck, I love it. So spacey.

You don’t like Locrian because nobody does, it’s not a real mode. The Ancients only had 6 modes, they ignored the 7h degree. And that’s true up until past Bach, they only used the other 6 modes. But the modern music theorists were bugged that there was a mode that wasn’t named so they stuck Locrian on it. It’s kind of silly.

1 Like

Dominant refers to a chord that begins on the fifth scale degree of a major scale, which is Mixolydian, and thus has a flat 7th, or more accurately a minor 7th on top of a major triad.

A major 7th chord begins on the first scale degree of a major scale, which is Ionian, and thus has a major 7th.

A dominant maj 7th and regular major 7th are most certainly unique chords, but that terminology comes from how the chords work in a chord progression.

For anyone confused, it’s easier to understand if you sit in front of a keyboard and play both chords in C.

M7 and Maj7 are the common nomenclature I’ve seen in synthesizers with chord functionality, and the respectively refer to a dominant 7th and major 7th chord.

1 Like

Or to get really crazy, I believe the harmonic series is mixolydian for the first octave, and then similar to Lydian dominant for the second octave. After that the harmonics get microtonal.

1 Like

By all means get crazy :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

i just verified this, but on my unit, M7 is a dominant 7th chord and Maj7 is a major 7th chord. i always thought it was and never had any issues with chord names not being correct. maybe check again and sweep through the inversions with the color parameter…?

1 Like